John John,
You probably have no idea how offensive the phrase “people like YOU” (addressed to anyone)is.
Shayna is Shayna and not a certain category because she is a Jew and disagrees with you. She was not ridiculing your belief, but rather indicating that your rants were intolerant. (Something I think Tomndebb had tried to indicate earlier in the string.)
I must say that until you hijacked this thread back with whether Moses spoke Hebrew, It was quite interesting.
Renee, a people like myself.
from the WHO WAS JESUS REAL BIOLOGICAL FATHER THREAD
Shayna
Member posted 01-15-2000 11:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Yue Han:
Let’s see… A completely off-topic response, calculated to offend. Insults thrown at a large group of people without qualification. Taunting of those who would be offended. No capitalization.
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank]]]]
Did you complain that toecutter might be an anti-Christian by bringing up this topic? When you posted to this thread how come you didn’t post your outrage at the audacity of the question? Selective aren’t you?
Are you applying a different standard to Christians?
Sad, isn’t it?
The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian.
I qualified what I meant by “people like you” and went one step further by putting YOU in caps to illustrate that it was ONE person and in no whay what YOU suggest. Bad try.
The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian.
From the Who was Jesus Real Biological Father thread:
Brooklyn44So, a looney guy who says he is the son of god may very well be a great preacher who[bold}believes[/bold} he’s the son of god and predicts that those who follow him will join him in his father’s kingdom. It’s called faith and is different from history or religion. I don’t know of any religious belief that doesn’t involve the supernatural
renee
All I’m doing is what you were doing in the
“Who was Jesus Real Bologival Father” thread.
So, what he big deal?
The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian.
What in the HELL are you talking about? That you would put “YOU” in all caps and direct it to me personally shows your extreme ignorance. I have never, ever, ever criticized anyone’s religion. I challenge you to find one topic on any of the SD message boards where I have done so. As a matter of FACT, I’ve never even posted a reply on the GD board before. The only threads on the GD board where my name appears in the replies, have been replied to when those threads were on the GQ board before they got moved over here by one of the moderators. So your assertion that “I” criticize everyone else’s religion is not only absurd, outrageous and untrue, it’s also insulting.
Again, I’ll answer NEVER. I’ve haven’t gone to any pains whatsoever to post ANYTHING on these boards, especially as it pertains to Jesus. As a matter of fact, I DO believe that Jesus was the son of G-d – in the same way I believe that we are ALL G-d’s children. I just don’t happen to agree that Jesus was MY saviour. He may be yours, and he may be other people’s, but he wasn’t and isn’t mine. But I would never in a million years deny ANYONE the right to believe what feels right in their heart and soul. Again, your implication and assumptions are wrong and insulting.
John John, you lose all credibility when you can’t even stick to the subject at hand and what was specifically stated. I never said any such thing about you. You are not the devil and I didn’t even so much as imply that you were. What I said was that your hijacking of this thread, in an effort to belittle Judaism, proves my theory that Jews are persecuted because people like you won’t simply allow us to believe what we do without tearing us to shreds for it.
Again, I never said any of those things. Sheesh - do you even read? IF this were a thread debating the birth, native language or parenting of Moses, then every one of your replies would be appropriate and acceptable, even if others didn’t agree with your assertions. But I find that your continually beating this horse in a thread where it doesn’t belong is inappropriate. It’s like you’re hell bent on PROVING something - proving Jews are WRONG - even going so far as to post links to supporting websites that would show us what morons we are for believing. You cannot repeatedly, in back-to-back-to-back replies, tell us over and over and over how stupid we are to accept the Torah as the word of G-d, and expect us not to be insulted. I didn’t say you were “preventing” us from believing. But you’re certainly mocking us for it. Which, again, is what led me to my statement that it is this kind of attitude towards Jews that has continually led to our persecution throughout history.
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
Do YOU have any idea how insulting and untrue this statemnent is? You don’t believe in Jesus and I don’t believe in Moses. So, what’s the big deal? You can believe whatever you want and so can I.
What I have illustrated in my posts on this subject, and you failed to comprehend, is that ALL religion is based on faith and not backed by fact. I suggest you reread this thread and try to grasp that.
I’m convinced you are having a problem in reading this thread. Please go back and read the post above where YOU posted in the “Who was Jesus Real Bilogical Father” thread and you will see that I quote EVERYONE properly. You are not misquoted. Are you now saying you did not post in that thread?
The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian.
mipsman raised a question on this board: “is there a double standard?” Judging from the few responses I’ve gotten from some of the Jewish members on this board, it would seem his question should be answered in the positive.
You can raise questions and join in on discussions on Christianity but no one can ask questions or bebate Jewish issues? Really? Is that what you’re saying?
The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian.
You mean, judging by Chaim Keller’s extraordinarily polite responses to you? I think it is you who may have the double-standard here. I’ve certainly discussed Judaism with CMKeller from my atheistic perspective without being censured; I think the objection is to your aggressive, even insulting, tone rather than the subject matter. I would not respect such a attitude from any person towards another’s faith.
“It’s like I always said…there’s nothing an agnostic can’t do if he really doesn’t know whether he believes in anything or not” --Monty Python, “The Meaning of Life”
And I am equally convinced that you cannot read at all. Let me spell this out for you very carefully so that there can be no room for further misinterpretation of my words.
You asserted that I “expect to be able to criticize everyone else’s religion and hold their religion under a microscope,” and that I “said, or other people said, that Jesus was NOT the Son of God.” You further went on to post some supposedly supporting evidence of this by pulling my reply from the “Who was Jesus’ real father?” thread.
However, the quote within my reply to that thread was posted by Yue Han. Granted, I was in agreement with them on the issue they were discussing, however, neither one of us was criticizing anyone’s religion, putting their religion under a microscope, or commenting on whether or not Jesus was the son of G-d. What Yue Han was commenting on, and I was in agreement with, was bda’s rudely calling believers “idiots.” We were commenting on his style and methods of communicating, NOT on his beliefs.
To which Yue Han then replied…
And I agreed with their assessment of bda’s comments and motives. Period.
As anyone with half a brain can see, your use of that reply as evidence of some purported blasphemy on my part is completely wrong.
And if you had bothered to read the linking thread I’d provided as a means of evidencing bda’s propensity to insult, you’d have found this…
To which I replied:
Now please, by all means, tell me where in that exchange do you see me doing any of the things of which you accuse me??? Where did I insult his religion or put it under a microscope? Where did I deny the existence of Jesus or make any claims in regards to his being the son of G-d? Where is the double standard you claim that I have exhibited?
Not to mention, if you had BOTHERED to take the time to really read that thread, you’d have also found this post by me…
John John, I simply will not allow you to malign my name by taking quotes out of context and labeling them as something that was never intended or even remotely implied, let alone stated. Your having done that is cruel. Please, don’t do it again.
Thank you,
Shayna
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
John John, reading the Who was Jesus’ real biological father? thread, again, I notice that toecutter never issued any statements denigrating the Christian belief. He set up a “what if” situation and asked for responses. The only time he mentioned the “Roman soldier” story was in his list of possibilities. Since there was an ancient anti-Christian text that made that claim, he was only including all the historical possibilities. He never returned to that point and no one else made reference to it except an oblique reference by NanoByte.
So we do not find toecutter being disrespectful and there is no need, therefore, for any other poster to “defend” Christianity against his (nonexistent) attack.
You quoted brooklyn44/Renee seriously out of context. She was also clearly playing “what if” thought games with her post (that you selectively copied).
(There is also no evidence that I have seen that indicates that she is Jewish, so you may just be jumping to conclusions when you claim that “Jews” are free to attack Christianity.)
Your quote from Shayna is at a point where bdahas posted a less than respectful comment and she is backing up Yue Han’s contention that bda is a hit-and-run poster.
So she is basically pointing out that other posters can ignore bda’s rudeness on threads regarding either Judaism or Christianity.
A fairly large number of Christians posted to the Who was Jesus’ real biological father? without ever challenging the appropriateness of the topic. You have chosen to come to a separate thread on Judaism and claim anti-Christian prejudice. Where were you on the Who was Jesus’ real biological father? thread?
Tally: cmkeller, Jewish, challenged for his beliefs for no apparent reason brooklyn44, religion unknown, quoted out of context Shayna, Jewish, charged with “complicity” in accepting “attacks” on Christianity because she pointed out that one poster was rude on threads dealing with both Christianity and Judaism toecutter, Hindu?, (has posted that he is not a follower of any of the three sister religions of the mid-East), posted one question that asked people to set aside their religious beliefs but did not mock or attack any particular religion.
I think you are getting worked up over nothing, John.
And thank you tomndebb. I missed your reply when I was composing mine. Your kind words and clarification that I was not being either insulting or hypocritcal are greatly appreciated.
Shayna
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
You know, I’m sorry I let myself continue this far. I was hoping we were not headed in this direction again, but I was wrong.
John, I commend you for hoding out this long before you started dragging this stuff up one more time. I suggest you let it go, but you can suit yourself. (I think you’d be better off sitting down with your in-laws and their rabbi and hashing it out, rather than bringing it to this board, but that’s your choice.)
I was simply defending myself against your untrue and outrageous attack. No place did I suggest that you, Shayna, should not be allowed to practice your beliefs. You even go one dramatic step further by suggesting that the world, Jews, would be better off if “people like me” did not inhabit it. You, dear heart, turned an honest debate into a character assault.
My intent, which you still have not grasped, was to show that ALL scripture, Christians and Jews cannot stand the light of true scholarship because of the proliferation of contradictions, dubious authorship and heroic invention. If you had read my posts more closely you would have seen that I did the same thing to Christian scripture, and will continue to do so.
You said you believed that Jesus was the Son of GOD, as I am, as you are the daughter of God, but specifically stated by implication that you did not believe He was part of the Trinity, and as such more special than any other human. I have NO problem with you not believing that and do not hold that you should. Why do YOU hold that I must believe in Moses the way YOU do and never question, as you must have, to come to YOUR conclusion about Jesus?
This is a debate, not an attack, and all things are being discussed. You assailed me first, Shayna. It has not escaped me that this character assassination is a not so clever way of avoiding my questions about the contradictions in the Bible.
The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian.
And I have been cordial and polite to him, as evidenced by my posts below. How can you can state that I haven’t ?
me
me again
Me again, I state my intent
This is neither aggressive, rude or persecutory. My words are there to read and any reasonable reader could conclude that they are respectful,polite and a genuine attempt at discussion.
The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian.
For many Christians, to question the description of Jesus’ birth as related in the Bible is unthinkable. They believe that the Bible is the “word of God”, an infallible record of the Almighty’s influence on his creation, and therefore to be taken at face value. However, a careful study of the nativity narratives of Matthew and Luke indicate that the supposedly unerring “word of God” is full of contradictions and inventions. The most plausible conclusion is that the familiar Christmas stories in Matthew and Luke are religious myths, awkwardly grafted onto an earlier non-miraculous tradition about Jesus’ birth.
They appear to be legends recorded by later Jewish-Christian apologists who were attempting to explain the origins of a man whom they considered divine. In this sense, the authors employed the familiar Jewish practice of the time known as “midrash” to illustrate and prove their points; that is to say, they liberally interpreted and expanded on texts and prophesies in the Jewish scriptures. The miraculous birth stories also served other purposes, namely, to rebut the contemporary inferences about the illegitimate birth of Jesus (Matt. 1:18-19, Mark 6:3, John 8:41) and to counter charges that he was possessed by the devil, rather than the spirit.
One of the first examples of things not ringing true can be found in the attempts by the authors of Matthew and Luke to trace the ancestry of Jesus back to the Jewish king David. It was from the royal house of David that the messiah was expected. However, upon close examination, the tables of descent in these gospels become transparently artificial, with many errors and downright contradictions. For example, the two gospels cannot agree on the lineage of Joseph, the father of Jesus. Matthew has 28 generations between David and Jesus, while Luke has 41 for the same period of about 1,000 years. In Matthew’s gospel, Joseph’s father (i.e. Jesus’ grandfather) is said to be Jacob, while in Luke it is claimed that he is Heli. They cannot both be right.
All religions have myth incorporated into their dogma, Christians and Jews alike. Didn’t want you to feel left out, tom.
The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian.
While I don’t believe that anything I stated was either outrageous or untrue, that you viewed it as an attack is enough for me to apologize for having offended you.
But for the record, I do not wish anyone dead or to not inhabit the planet at all - I simply wish that those who do inhabit this earth be more tolerant of opposing beliefs and viewpoints. And until that happens, persecution against those who differ will continue. That was my point.
I also didn’t say that you suggest I should not be allowed to practice my beliefs. What I said was that you don’t allow us to do so without mocking us for doing it. And that in so doing, you are persecuting us for our beliefs. From Webster’s New Riverside University dictionary, Persecutevt1. To harass or oppress with ill-treatment. 2. To bother persistently : ANNOY. You have, in fact, harassed, bothered and annoyed the people who don’t see things your way throughout this thread. And my initial reply to this thread was in answer to the OP as to why Jews are persecuted. And that answer is - because we are treated the way we are by people like you, John. If you find my use of the phrase, “people like you” offensive, I apologize. I simply cannot find any other way to express that it is to you, your words and your methods that I am addressing this concern, and anyone else who would exhibit the same behaviour would also fit my premise.
I haven’t failed to grasp anything in any of the points you’ve made throughout this thread. In fact, I grasped your meaning quite well, which is precisely why it offended me so much. Just because you equally dismiss Christianity and Judaism doesn’t make your comments any more palatable.
What you fail to grasp from my statements, John, is that your continued raking over the coals of all “believers” is not only completely off topic in this thread, and therefore inappropriate and irrelevant to this discussion, but it’s also insulting. Had you engaged in a conversation (in a separate topic where it was relevant) where you stated your case for why you don’t believe in the Bible, acknowledged that others do believe in it regardless of its inconsistencies and moved on, or even were attempting to truly understand why people are willing to act on faith alone when you find it impossible to do so, that would be one thing. But you haven’t done that at all. You repeatedly, in an ever escalating tone, imply that those of us who do have faith are morons because we can’t see the truth as you see it.
It is abundantly clear to everyone else here that you do have a problem with those of us who “believe.” You have attacked us for our beliefs whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. And again, I’ll ask that you not put words in my mouth. I never said that you “must believe in Moses the way * do and never question, as * must have, to come to [MY] conclusion about Jesus.” Nowhere did I say or imply anything of the sort.
Asking questions in an effort to gain knowledge, or to understand another’s viewpoint is entirely different than “quetioning” someone in a manner that insults those you’re questioning. I don’t find that you have any interest in understanding either Judaism or Christianity. What I do find is that you are completely intollerant of anyone who can’t see how wrong the Bible is.
I’m afraid I see things differently. I see that, while although not me personally, my faith, and all of Judaism and Christianity have been repeated attacked by you in your numerous back-to-back posts in this thread. And therefore, by extension, you did indeed throw out the first “attack”. And I have not “cleverly” avoided anything you’ve said about the Bible and its inconsistencies. It is duly noted that you find it impossible to be a follower because of that. However, I have stated on numerous occasions that this is not an appropriate thread in which to be discussing those issues. That you chose this particular thread, one that is for the purpose of learning about and understanding the plight of Jews throughout history, to maliciously attack our particular beliefs, shows that you have an utter disrespect for us as a People.
And like Tom, I think I’m done with this. I’ve stated my case and I believe I’ve made myself clear on why I feel as I do. I hold no ill will towards you for either your words or your actions, John. Hopefully we have both learned something from this exchange.
I’m off to get ready for my Superbowl party. Have a nice day.
Shalom,
Shayna
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
