Well, you’re pretty much confirming my point by putting the question back on the Mac rather than asking the question about Windows: Sure, there are people who love their Toshiba notebook. But those people don’t love Windows, do they? I never said you couldn’t find people who loved their computer that runs Windows, I said specifically that you can’t find people who love Windows.
As another poster said, in the Mac world the OS and the hardware are pretty well integrated. But I don’t think that makes them inseperable. If Apple had done things differently way back when and licensed the Mac OS to the likes of Toshiba and Dell and Compaq, it would be the dominant OS now and those people who love their Toshiba notebook would love it, and the OS on it. (Yes, I know that’s a completely untestable hypothesis so disagree all you want, there’s no way that either of us can be proven right or wrong.)
It is. That doesn’t make it good. It’s a piece of crap that due to a number of factors – none of which are quality or ease-of-use – gained market dominance.
They are inseparatble for the purposes of this thread, because when someone says “I love Macs” what they are referring to is the total system. The paralle to “I love Macs” is “I love ThinkPads” which is not an uncommon sentiment.
Another thing: my observation has been that in general, when one side of an argument is more forthcoming in admitting the disadvantages of their side, that’s usually an indication that those advocates are rational people who made informed decisions. It doesn’t necessarily indicate the inferiority of what they advocate. The side that uses emotional expressions and unable to admit their shortcomings are displaying a herd mentality, i.e. “I’ve picked my side and I’m sticking with them no matter what.”
If it’s common on both Mac and Windows, it’s not relevant to this thread, is it? If you’re trying to use it as an example of something else that is common despite its mediocrity, well, all it is is an analogy and doesn’t prove anything.
Same for both systems, actually. Depends whether the system currently has the drivers; if it does–on either Mac or Windows–it works (with those few exceptions you mentioned). If the system doesn’t have the drivers installed, you have to install them regardless of the OS.
Works the same for Windows with the exception of executables; when executables are being dragged from their original folder, a shortcut is created. That’s actually a wise move, because, generally, a reference to that executable will be written in the registry or in already-existing shortcuts. I consider that pretty friendly overall lest you take the chance of disabling your existing shortcuts by mistake. But if you want to move an executable without creating a shortcut, just hold down the shift key and carry on.
You mean for programs running that aren’t usually referenced on the Dock? True, Windows doesn’t allow you to change the order of running programs listed on the taskbar, but I guess I don’t see where that’s important. But I have to admit that I’m not a big fan of the Dock in the first place; I usually get rid of it and use a third-party program which keeps better track of the programs I’m running, and the ones that I’m not.
Incorrect. The Quick Launch bar (by default located on the left of the taskbar) serves the same purpose. It’s been around since Windows 98 (Windows 95, too, I believe, when you installed Internet Explorer 4.0).
As a network administrator, I use Macs and PCs, servers and clients, all day long. When it comes to the client machines in terms of quality of use or stability, I don’t have a preference now that Windows XP is around. Each system has its drawbacks, and each system has its advantages.
Quite honestly though, it’s nothing to get excited about.
Yeah, right. I plugged a 3-button mouse into my Mac. Even though it’s a “Windows” mouse, it worked beautifully. No reboot. No installing drivers. No problem.
Yesterday, I plugged a wireless mouse into my Windows XP system. Installed the drivers. Rebooted twice. XP says the mouse is working, but the cursor won’t move. I wasted an hour trying to make the cursed thing work.
I’m very position-oriented. When I’m working, I like having my Web browser be the leftmost button on my taskbar, and email the one next to it, and the word processor be the one on the right. I can switch using peripheral vision only, extremely fast. This is easy to do in OS X. With Windows, once my Web browser crashes or has to be shut down, the only way to make it the leftmost button is to shut down every program and restart them all in the correct order.
Then the Mac already has the proper drivers installed for that mouse. No problem with that. I plug my multi-button Logitech mice into my Windows XP machine, and I, too, don’t have any problems. The buttons work, each and every one.
As for your wireless: why would you automatically blame XP? Why shouldn’t the blame be put on the programmers who made what could be a faulty driver? (I’m not saying that XP isn’t at fault here, but I also have used wireless mice at home on my XP system, and I’ve never had an issue.)
Plus, do you think your Mac would have automatically recognized and used a wireless mouse? It may, sure, if the driver’s already installed, but my guess is that it wouldn’t be. So, comparing an instance where a common, three-button mouse is plugged into a system where the driver likely exists with a wireless mouse into a system unlikely to already have a driver is an unfair comparison.
Sounds like it certainly is an advantage to you. Me, not so important, but I also don’t seem to have an issue with taskbar buttons being positioned differently each time. I switch back and forth with enough speed to make my day go by easier. When I’m on a Mac and am using the Dock, I don’t bother switching the icons around and I still get by with enough speed to make me happy. Sounds like we both work with what’s best for us.
So what you’re saying is that the user has to live with inconsistent behavior because of the way executables are handled internally by the OS. That’s one of the big differences between the Mac OS and Windows. The Mac lets you do what you want to do, Windows forces you to do what it thinks you should do.
That’s because you’ve been trained by Windows to not even use aspects of your mind that would otherwise be second nature. I’ll explain: People remember things in a number of ways. One of the more useful is by relative position. I mean, have you ever had the experience of reading a book and then trying to find some specific passage? You remember that it was about a third of way in, on a lefthand page kind of near the top.
Just so, in something like the Windows task bar or Mac Dock, if you routinely work with five or six programs open (let’s call them A, B, C, D, E, and F, just for ease), it’s far easier to find the one you want if they are always in the same order. If I know that they’re always A-B-C-D-E-F, I can move the mouse to D easily and quickly. If it’s always in the same place, it soon becomes second-nature; I don’t even have to think, my hand just automatically moves there. But (as in Windows) if their order depends on the order that I opened them (and if I close a program and reopen it, it insists on moving to the end), so that today it’s A-B-C-D-E-F, but tomorrow it’s B-E-F-D-C-A and then it’s A-D-C-F-E-B, I always have to take the time to hunt for it, or worse, if it’s been one order for a week, but then because one program got closed the order is now changed, I have to unlearn what had become habit and learn a new ordering!
Ok, try this one: On Windows, launch MS Word. Now find a text document that Windows shows as being owned by WordPad (so that if you double-clicked the icon, it would open the document in WordPad), but you want to open it in MS Word. Grab the document icon and drag it to the MS Word icon on the task bar and release the mouse button. Windows puts up a nice dialog that tells you that you can’t drag an item onto a task bar button. It even goes on to tell you what you need to do in order to get the behavior that you want.
WTF? If it knows enough to tell you how to do what you want, why can’t it just do it?!?
Try the same thing on a Mac. Drag any text document onto the MS Word icon in the Dock and release, and the OS happily opens that document in that program.
Yes, I know that Windows has the right-click contextual menus that allow you to “Open With”; so does the Mac. But if you tell me to do that, you’re missing the point: The Mac OS let’s me do what I want how I want. Windows forces me to do things the way it wants.
One more: Ever notice that buttons on the Windows task bar stop one or two pixels above the bottom of the screen? This insanity has existed since the first task bar, and continues even in vaunted XP. Why is that bad? Do some Googling on “Fitt’s Law”. Those stupid one or two pixels make it substantially more difficult to move the cursor onto the button. Because if you’re moving down (which, given a task bar at the bottom of the screen, is the way you’ll always be moving) and you move just a bit too fast and you overshoot the target, you’ve missed it. But if the damned buttons went all the way to the bottom of the screen, overshooting wouldn’t be a problem, because the cursor automatically stops at the very bottom.
On the Mac, both the upper menu bar and now the Dock have the property that the usable target area of the items goes all the way to the edge of the screen. You can hit a Mac menu or an item in the Dock far, far more easily than you can hit a Windows menu that’s at the top of the window, or a task bar item that insanely stops a pixel above the bottom of the screen.
Which is a very telling statement, isn’t it? On the Mac, you can work the way you want and I can work the way I want, even though our ways are different. On Windows you can work the way you want and I’m just SOL.
Try this: When someone says “I love my Mac”, ask them if that means they love the hardware. Then ask them if that means they love the OS. I think you’ll find that most people will answer “Yes” to both questions.
Now when someone says “I love my ThinkPad”, ask them if that means they love the hardware. Then ask them if that means they love the OS. Let me know how many answer “Yes” to both.
Are you trying to tell me that Mac shotcuts never lose sight of their intended target? If so, I can guarantee that’s not the case. In addition, I’m saying that the way Windows cautions you about moving executables is a good thing; maybe annoying to you, but beneficial to numerous others.
Well, yeah, for that one narrow instance you are SOL. But, reverse the situation, and there are numerous things that a Windows PC can do that a Mac cannot. It’s what happens when you have two, separate products; of course things are going to be different for each one. Ultimately, however, what you just described is of little importance.
You happen to work well with Macs and I happen to work well with both types; I’m not sure why it still needs to be a big deal.
Your book analogy isn’t the best. Information coming from a book has to come in a linear manner; finding a passage, then, relies upon the information always being in the same place. Sure, it’s important for the taskbar and dock to be in the same place, but the icons for running programs? I agree that it’s important to you, but not important to millions of others. What you’ve described is a personal preference, not a needed way of life.
Progam location on a taskbar or dock is a bit of ephemeral information; I have no need to permanently memorize what order they’re in. It certainly wouldn’t give me any noticeable advantage to switching programs. Maybe it does to you, but again, not everyone works the exact same way as you like to work, nor would they need to. I just don’t find it a challenge to remember where my Windows programs are on the taskbar. Nor do I find myself at a loss that I have to use the GUI to find the location of my running programs should I forget within five seconds the order in which they appear. I’m just not an environent where that type of memorization is necessary; neither, I suspect, are the majority of other people.
Our minds aren’t wired to think just one way; we’re able to adapt to numerous situations and work equally well with many of them.
Again, it’s a personal preference of yours in a narrow context that highlights minor differences between the OSes; it doesn’t necessarily apply to the whole OS, just one minor feature of it. Personally, I’d much rather use the context menu than deal with an accidental dragging of a document on to a program shortcut. Sometimes there’s a case of being too helpful. (But hey, if you prefer to open documents that way, more power to you. No biggie with me.)
In addition, it’s not the Windows OS that’s at fault here. For example, I can drag documents on to other program shortcuts located on the Quick Launch bar and watch them open up within that program–even if they’re not associated. Sounds like–although you’ll still have a beef with Microsoft in this case–that’s the problem of that particular program’s programmers, not the OS. Looks like the OS gives programmers an option to allow that type of dragging and force opening.
I don’t seem to have that issue on the system I’m currently using. Placing the mouse at the very bottom of the screen and clicking still activates the programs in the taskbars. I can’t get it to overshoot. And since I’ve never noticed this as an issue before, I’m not convinced it’s even remotely a problem. Not for me, at least.
At any rate, my intention was not to come into this thread to quibble about the minor differences between each system, or to argue about whether your personal preferences need apply to every computer user, but to provide correct information in regards to your incorrect statements in post #74.
I’ve been using Macs longer than I have PCs; for client-side computing, I enjoy both. As long as I can get the things done that I need to get done, minor differences between each OS don’t bother me. I’m happy with either one.
It’s just the latest in a stream of examples. Two mice, both of which say on their packaging that they are for Windows. Plug one into Windows, and I can’t get the cursed thing working. Plug the other into OS X (which isn’t mentioned on the packaging of the Mac or the mouse), and it works.
Which is the whole point of having multiple operating systems available, and having them customizable. You shouldn’t have to pick an OS based on my preferences, and I shouldn’t have to pick one based on yours.
I’m not discounting your experience, but I’ve never had that problem with any of the mice I’ve used, whether serial, PS/2 or USB. Unless they need a driver installed beforehand, they just work.
I’m not sure what the Windows conflict was (lacking any detailed information), but if the Mac picked the mouse up and ran with it, I’m not surprised. It’s not unusual for manufacturers to package the same model of mouse separately as “Windows” and “Mac”. You’ll also find that some multi-buttoned mice labeled as “Mac-only” will also automatically work within Windows.
“Customizable,” however, isn’t always going to mean the OS is going to be customizable to the degree you want. There are going to be differences; you just happen to appreciate the differences which favor the Mac. Based on the examples you’ve given me, the differences presented are inconsequential; the level of customization you want is not important to me. I get along fine without and don’t feel that I need it.
Or, if I switch between the two OSes–as I often do during the day–the differences do not provide any roadblock to me. Each has advantages over the other, but that doesn’t bother me.
And of course you should have to pick your OS based on preferences; that’s the whole point of market competition. The world of commerical OSes isn’t a Shangri-La, nor does it aspire to be one. The two companies purposefully set themselves out to be different than their competitors so as to attract customers. You pick the OS which suits you best, or you work with whatever’s available.
That’s not what I was saying. I had two different points in two different contexts there. I was agreeing with your point that we are both using what works best for us.
One of the advantages of being out of the corporate world now is that I can customize my systems more. I used to keep them relatively vanilla because I wanted to be able to work with any computer in the building without changing my mindset. Now I can tweak to my heart’s content, and my Windows XP system probably doesn’t look much like your Windows XP system. And that’s as it should be, in my humble opinion.
I’ve posted a LOT of words on this topic. If you can trust that I’ve dealt with a good DOZEN operating systems over the last 18 years.
I get tired of the baiting. The iBook is sitting on my desk. It’s viewing my email, and nmapping the network, and analysing a network dump, and surfing the web, and playing iTunes, and a half dozen other things. quietly. It’s not baiting you in to slamming the OS. I don’t have to defend my chioce to you, but I WILL get pissed if you poke at me.
Apple seems to have some degree of QA testing. They’re not perfect, they’re just BETTER at playing well with others. The problems I’ve had are in talking to something that Microsoft ‘Embraced and Extended’.
We have three of four network guys who’s job is keeping our network running. If you have a PC, you need a seperate Virus scanner (and keep it updating), Spyware scanner (and keep it updating), Get the Computer to patch itself (which, every six months or so reduces my home PC to reboot hell). The Windows box CONSTANTLY announces useless shit I don’t care about. (I’m attached to your favorite WiFi network! there’s unused icons on your desktop! I’ve got a patch to install! I don’t know that you’ve got a perfectly adequate virus scanner, you may be at risk!) If you mis-type a URL in IE, you WON’T be able to correct it before they HELPFULLY annihalate it and send you to their ‘help’ page. I’m not gonna blaim Windows’ ills on IE, it’s just an example of it’s intrusion into your life, preventing you from spending time being productive.
I figure when I’m working on the Mac, I’m easily 20% more productive because I spend less time maintaining my mac.
That said, I just paid $115 for a Barebones computer (add video and HD) to make a file server for the basement. Use the right tool for the job, man.
In all fairness… my PC-using girlfriend wanted a minimalist keyboard. After she’d gone through several iterations with current vendors, I handed her a first-generation iMac keyboard (the ones that were so tiny they didn’t even have the “middle zone” of keys, Page Up, Page Down, Home End and all that).
It certainly wasn’t designed with Windows PCs in mind and XP doesn’t have iMac-keyboard drivers, but a USB keyboard is a USB keyboard and we plugged it in and it works fine. (The Apple Command key works like the Windows key on a PC keyboard. We had to set a QuicKeys macro to do Control-Alt-Delete because there’s no Delete key, so she uses Control-Alt-Backspace)
I’m at least 15% more productive on an unmodified Mac than on an unmodified Windows PC. If I get to download and isntall DefaultFolder, X-Assist, QuicKeys, X-Ray, FruitMenu, and a few other freeware and shareware hacks, and tweak all the settings until I’ve set up the environment just the way I want it, I’m probably 60% more productive than I would be on an unmodified PC, and 45% more productive than I would be on an unmodified Mac.
A lot of it is what you’re used to and what you know, but the MacOS is still (IMHO) a better starting point.
[hijack] I mentioned the MS-Windows “Document Window within Application Window” earlier in this thread. Apparently this unfortunate modality has an official Microsoft name…MDI? Ummm…is there a freeware or shareware hack to kill this “feature”? Maybe make the Application window transparent or something?
[/hijack]
Are you asking if you can, in effect, remove all the user interface (menus and toolbars) for the documents? No.
Are you saying that if you open Word (or whatever) on a Mac, you could put the app in the top left and the document in the bottom right, and when you want to click the “Save” toolbar button, you have to go to the top left, nowhere near the document itself? Seems user-unfriendly to me.
If each document has its own menu and toolbar, then yes, you can easily do this by simply opening multiple instances of Word (or whatever), each handling a single document.
It’s pretty widely accepted that the Multiple Document Interface (MDI) is a more efficient use of screen space, due to not having to waste space on multiple identical menus and toolbars, but whatever floats your boat. XP doesn’t care which way you use it.
I’m stunned that the taskbar order is such a big selling point for the Mac, or that dragging and dropping is preferred over right clicking. Generally speaking, the less you have to move the mouse, the better. But what do I know? I’m one of the unwashed masses who actually does love XP.
That’s just the thing. The Mac is easy to use for novices, but if you take the time to learn the keyboard (no harder than learning Win-R for the ‘run’ dialog, Win-E for explorer, etc.) You don’t often NEED the mouse. That’s another one of those things that used to be true that aren’t anymore. There’s FULL support in the OS for the right (and middle, and scroll) buttons, but I’ve found on the iBook, that ctrl/option/apple+mouse button is a fairly natural thign to do.
The two features I’ve found most useful natively are Cmd+H to hide something (I’m not gonna forget Mail’s running, I just don’t want it taking up ANY space), and Cmd+Q to quite applications without bringing them forward.) I can’t even describe QuickSilver…there’s no functional equivalent in the XP world.
I’ve actually included 3 types of Windows windows […checks sentence, decides it’s as coherent as it’s going to get]…umm, 3 kinds of Windows windows that are not MDI-compliant, and you can see how much easier it is to position them in relationship to the windows of other apps compared to the windows of the two MDI-compliant apps in this example.
Oh, and when I want to save something, I go Command-S, which works in every single application, and I can do it a lot faster than you can mouse over to a toolbar icon, regardless of where it’s located
