First off. Sorry if this has been discussed before. I looked and couldn’t find any similar topic.
Second and most important: Please let’s keep this thread on topic. It’s not about abortion, but about passion.
I understand why pro-lifers are passionate. They believe that abortion is killing a little baby. And no one wants to kill little babies. But if pro-choice advocates don’t believe that the fetus is a baby, then why do they get so passionate? How can the belief in personal freedom and privacy equate to the belief in life or murder? Yes, I know that some pro-life advocates resort to terror and murder, but most would never resort to violence. In a verbal or written argument, pro-choice advocates become as passionate, argumentative, and closed minded as pro-lifers. Why are the arguments from the pro-choice side so passionate?
I hear some of my European friends here telling me that we Americans put too much stock in personal freedom. You people that believe that freedom is overrated and also believe that the freedom to choose abortion is extremely important, how do you justify that? How can you believe that freedom is so important that you overlook what some consider murder, then decide that freedom isn’t all that important?
It was a very hard won personal freedom. Women deserve reproductive freedom. Abortions have always been around, and will always be around. Legalizing them has saved the lives of millions of women who may not have had this option before.
Personally, I do not know if I could have an abortion, if the decision was mine. But I certainly do not have the right to make that decision for anyone else.
I think you have your answer right there. When one side becomes passionate, it requires a great deal of patience and self-control not to follow them.
A second source of passion might be due to frustration or cognitive dissonance at what the pro-choice argument boils down to: that the precise instant of the transition from “cells” to “human being” is utterly arbitrary. One must accept that, say, 15 weeks after conception, that bunch of cells is no more human than a plant or a cyst, and can be disposed of as surgical waste without a second thought, whereas a short time later doing so will have you brought up on a murder charge. Thus, a 15 week foetus is not a human being.
Now, I have no such qualms - having thought the matter through I realise that such arbitrary thresholds are necessarily an important basis of law in general, and that pro-lifers are just as arbitrary in choosing conception as their transition point. However, this is quite a bullet to bite and some passion might be generated if the pro-choicer in question is unwilling or unable to fully appreciate the consequences of their position.
I think this is a little misleading, and I would put it somewhat differently: Europeans sometimes think that Americans are a little misguided in their view of personal freedom since it sometimes has negative societal effects, such that asserting one’s personal freedom might ultimately impugn someone else’s overall, in the long run. Freedom isas important to Europeans - there is merely sometimes a different view of what “freedom” is (or, in this case, what is and is not a “person”).
Which makes me question whether they are being serious with themselves about their passion.
This question doesn’t appear to make any sense. If you don’t believe abortion is murder, then you are not “overlooking” anything, you are simply fighting for freedom.
I’m actually somewhat European by American standards (born in England, raised in the U.S. by British parents) and passionately pro-choice. Some of my passion is a response to that shown by the extremes of the pro-life side in that I don’t like being called a “baby killer” or accused of being in favor of murder.
More of it comes down to this though. I am a youngish woman, and I’ve been a feminist since I was a teenager. I am aware that any time I have sex, I could become pregnant, and that, despite my best-laid plans (insert double-entendre of your choice), I could become pregnant. I’m aware that, despite the precautions I take, I could be raped. I hope and pray I never find myself in a situation where I am pregnant because I’m not very maternal, and, at my current age, the odds of any child I bear being handicapped are too high for my taste. I do not have what it takes to bear a child to term.
I also know that, if abortion is made illegal women will still seek them out, and some will die of illegal abortions. I know that if abortion is made illegal in all circumstances as some people would like it to be, it means that in the admittedly rare event that a woman has a pregnancy which threatens her life, the state will mandate that she must die, rather than her child. I cannot imagine what it would be like for a man to have to choose between his wife and his child or a woman between her life and her child’s, but I do not want that to be the government’s decision. I’ve been known to refer to my position as pro-the-awful-choice. I suffer from clinical depression, and I have been suicidal. Two years ago, I was laid off with no job prospects in sight. If I’d become pregnant, I would have become despondent enough that I would have attempted suicide. Hell, I was close enough to suicide even without that problem. To me, this is ultimately about defending the lives of women, just as some pro-lifers see themselves as defending the lives of babies.
I’m fairly conservative when it comes to matters of sex, and I don’t believe unmarried people should have children. I also believe abortion is immoral and should be avoided if at all practical. I also know that sometimes there are no good choices, only ones which are less bad than others. I would love to see a day when no one ever has an abortion. Until that day, I will do what little I can to keep it safe, legal, and rare, to repeat one of the pro-choice movements mantras.
I think some of us (me, for example) dislike the idea of slavery in any form and a system of laws that forces women to be breeders or celibate is a distasteful one. Safe abortion procedures exist; why shouldn’t they be available?
Further, abortion doesn’t exist in a vaccuum. Invariably, movements to ban it are coupled with other goals that restrict the choices and freedom of women, and since I don’t want my personal freedoms restricted beyond the absolutely minimum necessary to keep society working, I’ll happily argue that others should have those freedoms, too.
I’m not sure what Europeans you’ve been talking to, though. I can imagine a few of them being tired of hearing Americans talk (nay, boast) about freedom and such, and some may even roll their eyes in contempt about the somewhat anal American attitudes toward televised nudity (no pun intended), but typically the only people I hear saying that freedom is overrated are loons or wannabe dictators.
I can understand why people can be passionate about abortion rights as I can well identify with people whose whole future would be ruined absent the opportunity of an abortion - not an abstract issue but something very close and personal to these people. On the other side of the issue, I have not been aborted (obviously), and I won’t get aborted in the future. I don’t identify much with my own presentient existence either.
Well I’ve never heard this in discussion of American attitudes (these do get discussed among Europeans). What I did here was to the effect of “Won’t they stop crowing about how free they are already, when their and our personal freedom is in practical terms circumscribed to a comparable extent.”
I believe it is right for the woman, for the unwanted future kids, for society as a whole.
To give up on something that i feel is right for so many reasons because some people whom I feel are wrong see it as murder, that doesn’t sit well with me. It is something worth defending with everything we’ve got.
Assuming I am not passionate about a given issue, and the other party to the debate vocally denounces my stance as evil, will I remain dispassionate? Not likely.
Well I live in a country where abortion is illegal… and the end result are that the women that risk their lives are usually the poor. Well off women who want abortion get real doctors and can afford to pay. Its not a pretty picture all those women who die or have medical problems due to illegal ops.
Other reasons:
Religious… I’m not religious and I hate bible basher dictating what women can or not do. If they beleive its a “baby”… fine by them. I don’t. Another nasty aspect is that these people don’t like Sex-Education… which can only lead to more abortions ! I hate hypocrites.
Men don’t get pregnant: Since I can’t get pregnant I don’t judge people who might not want to.
Choice: This is the 21st century. If women can’t chose… then we are back to the medieval ages. I really like the idea of women being equal… and abortions are a way to get that unfortunately.
Kids: Expensive and should only be the product of willing parents. I don’t want to have kids. If I did… I would want them WHEN I wanted them… at the right time.
Because some people believe an individual woman (not the government or anyone else) is smart enough to make her own choices about her own body, and should not be forced into slavery for an unborn person.
And the next time a pro-choice person kills a doctor who doesn’t perform abortions, I’ll agree they are overly passionate about their stand. Killing fetuses, no. Killing human beings, yes. Pro-life my arse.
The passion, I believe, is not over reprouductive rights so to speak, but a cornerstone to make men and women the same (equal). I’d say that most passionate advocates don’t even realize this is the reason, and therefore have trouble explaning it. Also it is a very cold position to defend, and IHMO flawed as men and women are not interchangable (if you disagree w/ this statement, let me ask you would you accept either gender as a potential mate? - If not why?).
The ability of abortions allow women to act as men, sleep around, if they want, w/o the complication of being a mother along the way. And as the more passionate advocates would be quick to point out, fall under the oppersion of the man by being forced to be a mommy and submit to his power.
Most of the really passionate pro-choice types I’ve met have been women who have HAD abortions… or have gone ahead and had the children.
These are people who have had a firsthand look at what their lives might have been like if/when they’d suddenly had to deal with a surprise child. I understand this is a bit of a jolt, and definitely tends to derail any plans you might have had for your life.
Add in all the women’s issues stuff, and the curtailment of freedom that tends to be espoused by those who would outlaw abortions, and yeah, you get some pretty passionate pro-choicers.
The reason why I’m passionate about abortion rights is that I deeply, deeply resent the blatant attempts by the religious right to shove their religious beliefs into every aspect of our lives.
It makes me boil with rage whenever a certain sect’s “moral” code is used to justify hobbling science and medicine. Whether or not you personally believe that a procedure is “right” or “wrong” does not justify you trying to force others to live by your judgement.
For some of us, all it took was a pregnancy scare.
You realize you’re late and tell yourself everything is all right: you’re just stressed, not eating right, etc. But for a few days, you think of nothing besides the fact that you just cannot be pregnant right now. A voice is always there, always nagging you, always reminding you how much you do not want to be pregnant. You tell yourself you’ll think about your options once you know for certain. However, deep down you know you aren’t ready and cannot have a baby. You buy a test kit and stare at the plastic strip, begging it not to show the plus sign. When the timer sounds, you find it’s suddenly very hard to look at that same test strip you’d previously watched so intently. You give yourself a few more seconds of not knowing, then steel your resolve, and–wonder of wonders–it’s showing a minus sign! Even if you haven’t felt religious in years, you thank God for your fortune. Life suddenly seems full of possibilities.
After the celebratory mood winds down, you think about what you would have done if the test had shown a different result. You’re glad you didn’t have to make that choice, but you know what the answer would have been. And you realize just how important your reproductive rights are. In some ways, those rights have a greater affect on a woman’s life than many other rights and freedoms.
Were the anti-abortion lobby out and about promoting empowerment for women and better education and availability of contraception as a means to reduce abortion I suspect the debate would be rather different.
This is a dishonest way to frame the question in more ways than one.
First of all, it’s not just about the right to privacy but about the need to keep the procedure safe. We do not, as a society, have a choice betwen whether women will get abortions or not get abortions, we only have a choice as to whether those abortions (which they will get regardless) will be legal or illegal- safe or unsafe.
My desire is to keep the procedure safe and legal in order to reduce human suffering.
I also object to your suggestion that being pro-choice means that I think abortions rights are more important than preventing “murder.”
Do you know why?
Because I don’t believe it’s murder.
I don’t care that someone else thinks it’s murder. They’re wrong and what they think is of no consequence to me. I’m just interested in reducing human suffering.
So the proper way to articulate my position is that I am “passionate” because I believe that the right of a woman to make her own reproductive decisions and to safely terminate a pregnacy is far, far more important than humoring someone else’s fantasy that a zygote is a “person.”
Having a baby dramatically changes your life. Having a baby at the wrong time in your life could shatter your dreams of a good career, good education, etc. To some, this isn’t merely a minor inconvienience, it is their entire life. At least everything about their life that is worth living for.
But they are. Planned Parenthood does offer contraceptives, either free or on sliding scale. They do offer classes on safe sex. You can go over there and pick up as much free reproductive-health literature as you wish. Pro-choice issues are always framed in the scale of a larger feminist movement. Most pro-choice people would like to limit the number of abortions too; you’re not going to find many people who are pro-choice and anti-birth control and education.
The reasons I’m strongly pro-choice are the same as most other posters’. I don’t believe a fetus is human life, I resent my body being used as a breeding facility, and I believe that people should have equal access to safe surgeries. Also I realize that if it were made illegal many more women would wind up dying from back alley abortions, and I believe it is in our best interest to minimize that number.