No…I’m a bag of cells AND a functioning, concious brain. Granted, the brain IS a bag of cells, but it also has a function in self awareness, which was the standard that I was using.
You’re basically just focusing on a very semantic part of my argument and overlooking my main point.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jmullaney *
**
What I was trying to say is that the person who swallows coke in front of a cop gives up their right to be free from medical procedures due to having committed a crime. Though, I assume there really is no medical procedure necessary in this case. Don’t they just hold the guy until the contraband makes it through his digestive system? Who has to fish it out of the toilet anyway? I always wondered…
In the case of the pregnant woman, she has NOT given up her right to protection from illegal searches and seizures, since she has committed no crime.
-L
Agreed.
My condolences to you and your family on your loss.
Wow, alloran, you decided to go with both guns ablazin’. Lets start with a big sweeping claim here.
Well, a lot of time yes, but occasionally two or more governments have a big disagreement. It doesn’t get solved over coffee and tea at Starbucks. After a while, they send large opposing teams of twenty, thirty, and fourty year-olds to kill each other until one side relents. Many don’t seem to like this, but we have yet to convict the likes of Bob Dole with murder. While this has nothing to do with abortion, it does illustrate that not everything is black or white. Like the issue of where life begins. Does a one, two, four, sixteen, sixty-four celled organism living in a uterus equal a living thing. Most don’t think so. Being pro-choice means leaving the choice up to the individual as to whether or not to have the abortion.
I’m sorry to hear that, and I feel for you and the family, but I cannot say that Jeffery was a person.
Perhaps in some jurisdictions, but in many they induce vomiting.
That is the current state of affairs in the U.S. I’m only suggesting a hypothetical; and I suppose falling back on people (fully formed) having a right not to be violated is as good a position as any. I give.
alloran-
First, who says life is sacred? As a society we allow murder in terms of capital punishment, where there is no argument over what consitutes life. We allow it morally in wars. The Netherlands allow suicide as euthenasia. etc. etc. Society has decided there are certain cases in which murder is not counted as murder. Do I agree? Not necessarily.
Many people I’ve encountered who are anti-abortion are pro-capital punishment. Why can’t these people at least be consistent?
But that’s a whole 'nother can of worms.
I used to be pro-life ten years ago. I am now strongly pro-choice, although I would favor preventative measures over pregnancy. I don’t like the attitude of people not taking responsibility for their actions.
HOWEVER, everybody fucks up. And I, to answer your OP, have no problem with abortion, as I do not consider that baby alive for the reasons many other posters have stated far more eloquently than I could.
Also, to be pragmatic, what’s better for society as a whole? Well, less kids being born into unfortunate circumstances for one. Yes, the solution SHOULD be, IMHO, education into contraceptive methods and avoiding the situation in the first place, but since it don’t work that way, I think it’s more humane to kill the unborn baby and spare the mother, so she could at least raise children when she is ready and capable to.
I understand your philosophical argument that life begins at conception. Sure it does. But in real-world application, that doesn’t hold any weight.
[Moderator Hat: ON]
Whoa. This one sure exploded in a hurry. Where to begin…
Let’s start with SexyWriter, who said:
and then followed it up later with:
All of this is BBQ Pit material, not Great Debates. We do not allow direct insults like these around here. Period.
alloran followed up by saying:
Actually, that would be more of a suggestion that one of the Moderators would make to somebody who says something like that. In other words, don’t do it again.
On a less official note, alloran also said:
I just wanted to point out that, yes, indeed, she most certainly does have the right to say that here. And you have the right to try to prove that she’s wrong.
Now, I hope I won’t have to make another appearance in this thread. If I do, it may be in the form of deleting messages of any repeat offenders.
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator
[Moderator Hat: OFF]
Hanging head in shame…
I’m sorry. 
I won’t do it again.
-L
Anybody not see that coming? 
Exactly. I don’t think anyone has the right to complain about the sanctity of life when he or she pays for random strangers to be bombed and innocent people to be incarcerated on a daily basis.
Well, I doubt if you asked any adult who was almost aborted that they would agree with you here. If they wanted to be dead, they could just kill themselves at this point.
Asmodean (regarding brain death):
You’re correct: brain dead people are dead. However, it’s impossible for them to come back to life. Brain death is determined on the basis of complete lack of brain function, as determined by various tests.
Once a person is declared brain dead, that person is legally and forever dead. The date and time brain death was declared is the date and time that go on the death certificate. Even though the heart still beats, that person is no longer legally a person: he is a warm corpse. In my view, the fetus before the brain is developed enough to produce brainwaves is also a warm corpse.
This is (to me, at least) an apt comparison. Brain death often does not occur in a single instant. Instead, parts falter and die one at a time. It’s impossible to pinpoint the exact second that last brain cell dies.
In the same way, the fetus does not become a person at one monumental instant. In other words, there’s not so much black and white.
alloran:
We don’t know all there is to know, but we know a lot. We certainly know enough to determine if a person has a functioning brain.
Well, I went hunting for cites for both sides of the therapy arguement. What I found:
This site: http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-abortiontrauma.htm says:
On the other side, this site: http://afterabortion.freeservers.com/ says that
So, which site is correct in their statistics? Well, I would say that both are. It depends upon which women were asked, their reasons for the abortion and their mental state before the abortion.
alloran, in your OP, you said
So, the question here is why are so many people pro-choice. Well, I cannot answer for everyone, only for myself.
I am pro-choice because I recognize that there are people in the world who have made genuine mistakes, women who have been raped, young girls who have been molested by someone close to them. At this point in my life I would not choose to have an abortion, because it would be wrong for me and I do believe that abortion is wrong. Does that mean that I have the right to make that decision for another woman? No, I don’t. Part of life is making our choices and then living with the consequences.
Now, let me ask you a question, alloran. If a 12 year old girl was raped by a relative and became pregnant, should she be forced to carry that child to term? Should she be forced to become a parent at age 12? Remember, a 12 year old is a 7th grader and no choice that she made led to this pregnancy.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jmullaney *
**
I’ve never liked that argument, simply because if I had been aborted, I wouldn’t know it now, and IMO, I wouldn’t have known it then. Was I almost aborted? I don’t know. Until now, it never occured to me to ask my parents if they had thought about it. Perhaps I might ask my dad though over a few beers sometime. If someone sneaks up on me tonight while I’m sleeping, and kills me, I’m not going to know it and therefore, can’t care one way or the other. I’m certainly glad that my wife wasn’t aborted, but if she was, I wouldn’t know about it now, or then.
Had I been aborted, some people wouldn’t have had the ultimate life pleasure of meeting me:) On the same note, I’m willing to admit that perhaps there are people that may have had a better or longer life had I been.
Turbo Dog:
I feel this way, too. Actually, I probably should have been aborted. My mom was pregnant with me shortly before Roe v Wade, and she developed severe Grave’s Disease early in the pregnancy. (This may also explain a few things about me ;)) She couldn’t receive treatment for it because doing so would have damaged me, so she suffered permanent (but not life-threatening) consequences.
If I could be given the choice now, I would want my mother to abort me for the sake of her health. If she had wanted to abort me for some other reason, I believe I could understand her decision and support it. Of course I wouldn’t be here now to think about it, but like Turbo said, I wouldn’t be aware of it anyway.
To SexyWriter, Flymaster, SterlingNorth, and ME.Buckner:
Viability has absolutely nothing to do with someone being a person. I guarantee you that if you told my aunt that her son wasn’t a person, a considerable number of people would be furious at you. However, thank you for your sorrow.
Holly, I appreciate your point of view, however, I seriously doubt that you would have told your mother to have an abortion when she was pregnant with you.
Lsura-You are a doctor in a hospital. A family comes in. The mother has nine children, the father has syphilis and works for a low salary, and they live in a run-down attic apartment. What do you do?
Treat syphillis with appropriate antibiotic. Provide references for support organizations if they’re requested. This is pertinent HOW?
Lsura:
I’d also point out that Mr. Reardon, whose statistics show that so many women are traumatized by abortion, is a pro-lifer with an openly admitted agenda to end abortion.
Koop was supposed to find evidence saying the same thing (Ronald Reagan was pro-life and wanted a study to back up his position). Remarkably, Koop came up with the “wrong” answer: he couldn’t find the results he and Reagan were looking for. The results of the study were quietly swept under the rug. If Koop had found the opposite, Reagan would have trumpeted the statistics from the rooftops.
So, who do you believe? The anti-abortion guy who came up with numbers he wanted to find, or the guy who came up with numbers he didn’t want to find? I’ll vote for the latter.
I bow to the choice of the mother. And I’ve seen this before-who are you going to tell me it is? Is this one Mozart?
Now, what do you do in the case I mentioned?