I find it hard to believe that your cousin was born alive without a brain. If he had developed without a brain, he would have been a miscarriage long before the third trimester. I have a feeling you are either BSing or you are mistaken about your cousin’s condition.
Infants born with anencephaly may have “a rudimentary brain stem” but they lack all of the higher brain areas. Reading the description of the disorder I’d have to say that, however tragic alloran’s aunt’s situation was, and however much sympathy we may feel for her, it seems clear to me that alloran’s cousin was never really a person.
According to Snopes, it’s not even correct.
Protesilaus,
I merely introduced the Beethoven story as a little aside thing. I was not trying to make an important point.
Friedo,
My cousin was delivered by C-section at 27 weeks’ gestation. Thus your point is invalid.
That makes more sense then. I withdraw my accusation.
Mercutio,
Never mind. I was thinking about a stereotype, and I was trying to make a joke.
MEBuckner,
A single cell in a human body cannot naturally develop into another human being under any circumstances. Cloning is not a natural process.
How do you define what is or is not a natural process?
Man is a part of nature. Man created cloning. Therefore, why is cloning not natural?
Cloning is not a natural process because it is not done solely in an animal’s body. Cell division, or mitosis, does occur inside an animal’s body and is a natural process.
So, straykat23, it sounds as if what you’re saying is “Everyone knows me and no one knows the baby, so who cares about the baby?” I am sorry for your loss.
In answer to your question: Much of my family, and, I’m sure, many others care about the baby.
Lsura,
I would give love and support to that girl. Yes, I realize that she’s pregnant, but giving her an abortion is not the answer! If you do, she’ll remember what she did for the rest of her life(unless she has amnesia).
So by your own definition, a test tube baby, where the egg is fertilized in a petri dish, and then when mitosis begins, is inserted into a woman, is not a natural process, therefore the baby is not a natural lifeform.
alloran:
Which brings us back to those darned old statistics. If a woman is morally opposed to having an abortion, of course she should not have one. However, a woman who is not morally opposed to it will not suffer distress if she chooses to have one. On the contrary, she will feel a great sense of relief.
I think “that girl” is the one who is best able to judge whether or not abortion is the answer, for her. I wouldn’t presume to make the decision for her, and I wouldn’t withdraw my support if she made a decision contrary to my opinion.
Ahem…would this be called a hijack if I tried to steer the discussion closer to the OP?
To me, the difference between a pro-lifer and a pro-choicer is not an absolute moral question, but one of degree.
It would be a very extreme position if a pro-lifer NEVER killed a living thing. It would be equally extreme if a pro-choicer insisted on killing every thing that lived.
“Living thing,” in a philosphical sense at least, covers viruses, bacteria, insects and plants at the small end of a complexity scale that terminates at homo sapiens.
Killing is condoned, even encouraged, even required, by portions of society that consider “Thou shalt not kill” to be a God-given absolute commandment.
I kill bugs with bug spray. I kill mice that get in my basement. I eat steaks and chicken. I don’t kill birds that come to my feeder and I don’t hunt deer in the fall. I felt uneasy being trained to kill people in the army (especially by the sergeant that went to church on Sunday), but I would pull the trigger without much thought if an adversary threatened me with murderous intent. This is just my level of comfort with an uncomfortable choice, and I find it difficult to condem others with slightly different levels.
So, killing is not the issue. How, where and when is. With abortion, it all boils down to, “WHO should make the decision?” Should it be the government, the church, the doctor, or the person closest to and most likely to be affected by the situation, the pregnant or about-to-be-pregnant female?
It’s either not murder or justifiable homicide under some circumstances, i.e., during war or self-defense. The circumstances may make all the difference.
I meant that cloning is a process that must be done with equipment not available in an animal’s body. The process you have just outlined is not artficial. I apologize toanyone else who misunderstood me.
Some people say that an abortion is a choice between a woman and her doctor. There are two people they aren’t asking.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO PROVE THAT?
Alloran, I don’t know what you mean. Are the woman and her doctor the “two people”? If not, who are they?
Alloran,
Go back to the cites that were posted by myself and by Lsura, and read them. It has been proven.
Here’s a cite:
METHODS OF ABORTION
SUCTION ABORTION; Also called vacuum aspiration, this is the most common abortion technique in use today. In this procedure a suction tube is inserted through the dilated cervix into the womb. A powerful vacuum tears the placenta from the uterus and dismembers the body of the developing child, sucking the pieces into an attached jar. There is a risk that the uterus can be punctured during the procedure. Also, the abortionist must take care that all the body parts are removed from the womb, as infection and hemorrhage can occur if fetal or placental tissue is left in the uterus.
DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C): In a D&C abortion, usually performed between seven and twelve weeks of pregnancy, the doctor inserts a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife, into the womb through the dilated cervix. As the curette scrapes the wall of the uterus, the baby is cut into pieces. Bleeding can be considerable. As with a suction abortion, there is a risk of infection or hemorrhage, so the abortionist must reassemble the body parts to make sure the uterus is empty.
DILATION AND EVACUATION (D&E): This method is similar to a D&C, except that forceps must be used to grasp the baby’s body because of the child’s advanced development. The baby is dismembered as the abortionist twists and tears the parts of the body and slices the placenta away from the uterus. Bleeding is profuse. Although relatively safe for the mother, the procedure is devastating to the hospital staff and many doctors refuse to do advanced D&E abortions.
SALT POISONING (SALINE INJECTION): “Salting out” is the second most common method of inducing abortion and is usually used after sixteen weeks. The doctor inserts a long needle through the mother’s abdomen and injects a saline solution into the sac of amnionic fluid surrounding the baby. The baby is poisoned by swallowing the salt and his skin is completely burned away. It takes about an hour to kill the baby. After the child dies, the mother goes into labor and expels the dead baby. Saline injections have been outlawed in some countries because of the risks to the mother, which can include lung and kidney damage if the salt finds its way into her bloodstream. In spite of the horrible burning effect, some babies have survived “salting out” and been born alive.
HYSTEROTOMY; Similar to the Cesarean section, the hysterotomy abortion is a surgical procedure whereby the baby is removed from the mother’s womb and allowed to die by neglect or killed by a direct act. This method offers the highest risk to the mother and produces the most number of live births. Hysterotomy is used only for late term pregnancies, and is sometimes used if the salt poisoning or prostaglandin abortion has failed.
PROSTAGLANDIN ABORTION; Prostaglandin is a chemical hormone which induces violent labor and premature birth when injected into the amnionic sac. Since prostaglandin results in an unusually high percentage of live births, salt, urea or another toxin is often injected first. The risk of live birth from a prostaglandin abortion is so great that its use is recommended only in hospitals with neonatal intensive care units. The risk to the mother is also greater with the use of prostaglandin; complications can include cardiac arrest.
http://www.pro-choice.com/pc3.htm