I agree wholeheartedly withjshore.
So, Turbo Dog, where do get the idea that I’m female?
Does that mean you’ve changed your mind then?
Did you ever answer all those questions? Did I miss that post?
A. No. It does not
B. Honestly, where are those questions?
(Ladies and gentlemen, I have created a raging wildfire.)
Turbo Dog, are you ever going to answer me? I know I didn’t answer your questions, but that’s because I don’t know what or where they are.
This has been posted twice now. This isn’t a “raging wildfire” that YOU’VE created. There’s not even any debate going on here, because without two sides to a discussion there can’t BE a debate.
-L
Dude, it’s been 45 minutes. Calm down.
Maybe he got the idea at this thread:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=64926
where, in your third post to the thread, you ask someone ‘why do you think I’m a man?’
sorry… a ‘young man’
Why did I assume you are female? I gave you the benefit of the doubt. If you are offended, you have an apology.
You don’t know where or what the questions are? Well, here’s an interesting concept for you; Instead of just typing in here, try reading. Start at page one, read every post, and try answering each question that each person has posed to you. There are several. Get some paper and a pencil. Take notes. Type out your answers when you have them all together. If you can’t figure it out from that point, you probably shouldn’t try debating. So far, as SexyWriter has mentioned a little more subtley, you aren’t debating but just simply shooting off your mouth about your opinion. There’s a big difference and a different place for it than here.
By the way, you aren’t by chance related to BrianBunnyhurt are you?
I feel the need to chime in here with the statement, back to the OP,
“I am pro-choice because I refuse to condemn my daughter to the world of my grandmother.”
One thing a lot of people don’t understand is “pro-choice” means having choices. One of them is not be left for dead.
Any speculation on how many operators who with little to or training maimed women?
http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/essays/abort97.html
http://wtms4c.freeservers.com/events.html
I also offer
http://www.historylink.org/output.CFM?file_ID=2641&keyword=Law
for your reading pleasure. I’ll admit today is not the same time frame, but by criminalizing abortion once again, you will drive some women to suicide, “back-alley butchers” and desperate choices made when they feel their back is against the wall. I am “pro-choice” because I refuse to allow women to once again be dumped into alleys, left to bleed to death because of what they perceive as " the only way out".
If you make abortion illegal, it’s not going to go away or stop.
grr…so much for running a spell-check… should have read “little or no training” instead of “little to or training”
Biologically, viruses are not considered to be living because they do not contain the machinery necessary to reproduce themselves. However, you said you were speaking in a philosophical sense so I am not accusing you of being wrong. Just thought I would inform anyone that cares.
Since it has been almost 100 posts since this was asked I will attempt to answer for alloran (though please correct me if I am wrong). I assume that the two people alloran is referring to are the father and the unborn child.
Preach on, oh great and correct one (no sarcasm). The only time a man has “a right to say anything” is when he is involved in the child making procedure, HOWEVER, his right to speak comes before the sexual intercourse ever occurs. The way we men avoid ever having our children aborted is by refusing to have sexual intercourse with anyone that would abort our children. By the time we have the intercourse, our time to speak has already passed.
Very true. But to be perfectly honest, I have nothing against killing 5 year olds either. Since, under the law, a parent is responsible for the actions of the child, I consider the child to be a possession of the parent and thus the parent should be able to do with it as it pleases. (Boy did you pick the wrong person to make that point to).
Fortunately, morality is an opinion. If we legislated the morality you described I would bet that the vast majority of people would have violated the “Helping others when able act.” I have always been a great fan of the quote “God helps those that help themselves.” Unfortunately for them, young children have only one major way of helping themselves and that is by acquiring the sympathy of others. They are successful with some (such as yourself from what I can gather) and unsuccessful with others (such as myslef).
It is not even an issue for me. 
But I realize that I am virtually, if not actually, the only person that has my particular beliefs on the subject of human killing.
I grew up with the idea, and heard from everyone I bothered to ask that would know, that adoption is more traumatic than abortion, largely because of the genetic programming that causes mothers to form a very strong attachment with their child upon seeing it. This is why it is very important to get the mother to sign the adoption papers before she gives birth because very few mothers are strong enough to give it away after birth if are not already legally obligated to do so.
It is true that abortion causes “emotional trauma”, but, to be perfectly honest, I suffer “emotional trauma” every time I get a paper cut (those things really hurt). Obviously the presence or absence of emotional trauma is not enough to determine whether something is a horrible act. Raising a child probably cause much more “emotional trauma” than an abortion does (mainly because most children live for a very long time and thus have lots of opportunity to create traumatic situations for their parents). But as Holly has said, emotions do not determine morality. I would hope that most everyone would not consider paper cuts immoral even if they were commited on oneself intentionally.
Having children at a young age (or at any age for that matter will cause regret in everyone). At some point in all parents’ lives they have wished they did not have children. Maybe this point in time did not last very long, and maybe it never reoccured, but if you have never wished that your child was not around, at least for a little while, you are a very lucky person. Whether having a child or having an abortion will cause greater regret is a guess that should only be made by those involved. No one knows you better than you do. Thus, it makes sense that you should make your own decisions based on your own morality. The only people involved are the mother (who gets to make the choice), the father (who left the choice up to the mother the moment he had sexual intercourse with her), and the baby (who is not old enough to make an educated decision—due largely to the lack of a functioning brain and complete lack of experience).
It is also important to remember that all our opinions come from the point of view of living people. Perhaps it is much better to be dead or never born at all than it is to be alive. You should at least try to get over your pre-existing bias that “life is good” before making the abortion decision, because you may not be thinking clearly.
alloran - it’d be easier to have a friendly debate with you if you could at least state clearly what your beliefs are and why you have them. at the moment, we mostly have an argument over the definition of “life” and “personhood.” We’re probably not going to change your mind on this, and you’re probably not going to change our minds on our definition. You asked why so many people support abortion, you got an answer. You do realize that the definition of life is not so cut-and-dry, don’t you?
I respect your opinion that abortion is wrong. I do not buy the argument that we are not to impose morality on other people. Living in a society, we do this all the time. Beating your children for misbehaving is considered immoral and against the law. At one point in history, it was perfectly accepted. Why are we now to tell parents that hitting their children is improper, despite the adadge “Spare the rod and spoil the child.” For some people, this can be seen as an infringement on their personal freedom, even on their religion. However, society now as a whole (in the US) has considered it immoral and punishable by law.
Slavery at one point was moral, even considered a duty to God by some owners. Civilizing the savages with God and work and all that. The North imposed their morality on the South. Do we consider this moral intrusion wrong nowadays? No. At least most of us don’t.
On the other hand, capital punishment, which I believe is completely immoral, without a doubt murder (for me,) is considered moral by most Americans. My tax dollars (well, not anymore as I make money abroad and pay taxes locally) go to murdering human beings, and I sure as hell don’t want their blood on my hands. You know what? All I can do is protest and convince people of my position. Or move.
If society one day, as a majority, comes to the conclusion that the point of conception defines life, ergo abortion = murder, then we will have to abide by it. Those of us who disagree will have to sway the general public otherwise. This is one of the points of having a democracy. As there is no general consensus on what defines life and scientific definition advocates that human life = brain wave activity, then we cannot reach this point.
All things considered, I do believe that your aunt’s child was a person, from a philosophical and spiritual standpoint. From a biological standpoint, it was non-functioning human being. This doesn’t make it any less of a human to the people that were involved in producing it and carrying it.
However, alloran, you must realize that not all people share your view that conception is life. I’m putting myself into your shoes, to understand your perspective. And I do. I’ve shared that opinion at one time. But try, please, try for a moment to see it from our perspective. Sorry to be so trite, but this subject matter is not as black-and-white as you see it. And I don’t think pro-choices are correct either in the “don’t impose your morality on me!” argument for the reasons I’ve stated above. I just don’t think it works.
You have every right to speak your opinion and try to sway the public perspective on the issue. But, in all sincere and objective honesty, you are making a mess of it. If anything, you’re polarizing people to the opposite view you want to advocate. Try a little more diplomacy.
The OP says Why are so many people pro-choice?
The easy answer: Because they sit down, look at themselves, their daughters, their sisters, their mothers, and their female friends, and think “what kind of life do I want this woman to have, if she gets pregnant and does not want a child?”
I think Pro-lifers tend to see all children as a blessing.
I think Pro-choicers look at the actual life that a child will lead, and realize that there are times that the negatives outweigh the positives.
But I also think that I will never convince anyone else of these viewpoints, or switch a person from one view to the other, because many people want to decide their view on abortion on a gut level.
Barbarian:
I think many of them tend to see pregnancy and childbirth as a righteous punishment for having sex, much like the description God gave Eve about how horrible having babies was going to be as part of her punishment when he cast her out of Eden.
When talking to Pro-life people, I hear the stance that being compelled to carry the fetus to term is what the woman “deserves”. “If you don’t want to have a baby, don’t have sex. If you do, you have to face the consequences. Pay the piper.”
In this view, children aren’t blessings at all. This also explains (in my opinion, anyway) why so many of these militant Pro-lifers are anti-birth control. They can’t stand the idea of a woman having sex without facing disastrous consequences. After all, if birth control and abortion are available, women are free to have sex. Can’t have that!
In other words, some pro-lifers are concerned most with what they believe are murdered babies. Others are mostly concerned with sexual immorality.
I must reply with my own evidence that women on the whole, do NOT need therapy to deal with their abortions.
I used to think so, til I knew several women who had them, and seemed no worse for wear.
I had one, I didn’t Want to wait the 8 weeks required; but i did.
I was depressed when I found out I was pregnant.
When it owas over, I was happy. I feel guilty for NOT feeling guilty.
Most people I know think abortion is murder, but until you are in that situation, you really can’t say what the choice should be.
Well, I poked around that website. Number one, that name is at best misleading. It’s NOT a pro-choice site. Number two, the site outright lies about abortion clinics. I’ve been involved in patient services (escorts and volunteer counselling) at a number of clinics, and EVERY clinic will make sure that the patient has made an informed decision about getting an abortion. If the clinic thinks that someone is pressuring the woman, the clinic will counsel the woman, and in some cases actually refuse to do the abortion. I can only conclude that the people at this site are deliberately trying to mislead people.
So, alloran, I’d suggest you get your information from a more reliable source.
By the way, I got pregnant in a country that didn’t allow abortions, and I was unable to get to a country where I COULD get an abortion until I was too far along to abort. I regret this. Even though I love my daughter, I wish that I hadn’t had to continue the pregnancy. It’s taken me a LOT of counselling to help me cope with this, and I will probably never be completely OK with not being able to get an abortion when I needed one. I’ve had longterm physical health problems, too, from this pregnancy.
Well, that’s why I said “I think”. I don’t know any openly anti-abortion people.
But then again, this whole debate is silly, since no one really wants to be converted to the opposite viewpoint anyway