I wonder if some of the folks in this thread who are against vouchers would want their kids to go to DC public schools? In effect, the vouchers get some kids into better schools and can give some parents better options than they would have otherwise.
I would rather fix the public schools and not have to force parents to choose between lousy public schools or religious schools they might not agree with.
And if religious schools are going to be allowed to accept money, they should at least have to teach a state approved curricum. I don’t think tax payers should be subsidizing the teaching of creationism and homophobia.
That’s right. SOME
What about the students that get left behind because they don’t qualify for vouchers?
Well, this is a good topic for another thread, but the lack of competition among health insurers has everything to do with the heavy regulations states place on these companies. Furthermore, the only reason why we have the health insurance situation we have today (employer-sponsored health insurance that has little resemblance to real insurance) is because of federal tax policy and state regulatory policies.
Exactly. There should still be efforts to fix public schools but students need better schools now, not down the road. If parents think that private schools would do a better job it’s ludicrous to force them to stay in the horrible public schools. And, if DC schools were actually losing money by seeing students leave (though they aren’t under the current program) they would have some incentives to try and improve their schools to bring them back.
There is some movement of this sort in Ohio where there is a voucher program letting students escape failing public schools. Although it’s common sense, some people are amazed that these public schools actually react to the loss of some of their funding and try to (gasp!) improve their schools to draw kids (and their money) back.
So you’d support a program to let all kids use vouchers? The only reasons vouchers are limited is because teachers and their political allies would never let a full-fledged voucher program be put in place.
Again, I ask, how do you fix public schools? They have been trying for decades in DC and nothing has worked.
Vouchers allow parents who care to abandon the public school system. Since the DC school district has failed those parents, the vouchers give them a way to get out without having to move. I would personally expand the program so that everyone in the DC schools could find an education that fits their needs.
This WILL turn the DC public schools to be the refuge of kids whose parents do not care. It will force a change in the mission of the DC schools, and a different focus.
The net result will still be a better opportunity for many kids, while others are still in the same crap situation that they are in today. Vouchers will not make the current schools worse, except that they pull away the kids of parents who care.
As for competition - the university system seems to show that public and private competition is great. We have many levels, costs and qualities of colleges & universities across America. Pell Grant and GI Bill money can get spent at secular and religious schools, and our nation has not collapsed.
They haven’t really tried at all. That’s right wing, boilerplate nonsense.
I’ll agree that many of the efforts at reform have been pathetic and ineffectual. These are what pass for reform efforts, however. Real reform, like vouchers, merit pay, etc., have been strongly resisted and not by the “right wing.”
Again, how do you fix a failing school?
You weren’t asking me, but that is exactly my position. The government must stay out of the religion business, and vice-versa. Vouchers are government subsidies for private schools. When those schools are partly or fully devoted to religious indoctrination, the vouchers are direct government subsidies to churches. The first amendment forbids that, and I am in the habit of defending the constitution.
Some of you have brought madrassas into this discussion. As I understand it, a madrassa is not just a school that teaches the Q’uran along with math, geography, health, and grammar. A madrassa teaches the Q’uran, and little else. It would be very tricky to compare the academic achievement of students who studied only one book.
By many accounts, some madrassas mix a heavy dose of Islamist politics and hatred for non-Muslims into the religious lessons. That brings in public safety issues that go far beyond any first amendment issues.
So the DC schools have done nothing to fix themselves, and you want to leave the kids in there?
WHO is going to fix those schools, since the Board, teachers and administrators seem to be incompetent?
Let’s talk about the types of programs often supported by the Right Wing, that are regularly opposed by the Left Wing (I am borrowing your broad brush):
- Fire bad teachers, and have teacher accountability.
- Expell misbehaving students, and have real punishment prior to that.
- Teach the basics FIRST, the extras later.
- Teach American pride and morals.
- Admit that some students belong in trade skill classes, and that they will not benefit from a college prep program.
- Admit that some students are significantly superior to others, and belong in a tracked curriculum focusing on college prep.
Now, the private schools have a significant advantage - they choose the students (and parents often). They can call a parent and the parent will be in to discuss the student’s actions pretty fast. Parentel involvement is CRITICAL.
The next thing to do is break up the school districts so that parent’s can have their say. Los Angeles Unified, for example, is too big. It is difficult for a parent to be involved at the senior level. I compare this to my public school as a kid, where I knew the Superintendant and members of the School Board (small town of 6,000 people). I compare this to now where I can call a member of the school board and talk to him about any concerns as well. When you get too big, parents lose impact, and are more likely to stop trying to fix things.
The DC schools get a lot of money per student, but are poorly run. Focusing on 2,000 students on vouchers is a waste. The focus should be on the operation of the district and how it has been allowed to get so bad.
How do you feel about Pell grant (and other government based financial aid) going to private, religious universities?
I don’t see that GI Bill or Pell Grant cash going to Notre Dame or BYU has left our nation in a Constitutional shambles, personally.
Would you rather all the kids get a lousy education or some of them get a better education.
Much as I would love to be able to blame the state of the schools on the right wingers, I can’t. The District has voted for Democrats since Home Rule started. The elections are really determined by the Democratic Party’s primaries. I couldn’t tell you who the Candidate of the Republican Party was for Mayor despite having voted in the Election and following politics here and I suspect that most of my neighbors couldn’t either.
Diogenes the Cynic, would you send your kids to a DC Public School? I should note that the one that I linked to in a previous post is located in an area where a 2 bedroom condo will start around $350,000 and run a lot higher.
This and one of your previous responses along theses lines puzzles me. Just because ALL kids can’t be helped you oppose helping SOME kids. If there was a burning school bus would you not try to save the few kids you could? Or because you couldn’t save them all, you wouldn’t save any? This thinking is strange to me.
Why not ask a more relevant question: how is it working out for higher education?
Based on the mandatory/compulsary nature of public education, it is all or none. Either you offer the vouchers to every family or none of them.
How do you get to decide which families are entitled to a better education for their children and which are not. Put it this way, if I said that we only give vouchers to black families, would you be OK with that? Is there a difference between that and limiting vouchers to families that make under $20,000 per year? And what do you say to the family that makes $20,001/yr? Hey, they get a state-supported chance at a better free public education but you don’t so fuck off!
There is plenty of precedent in higher ed for giving money to the poor, and not to the middle class or rich. Again, see the Pell Grant for an example.
Yet, as others have pointed out, public funds can be, and are, used by someone to go to a catholic university, and your higher education system is the envy of the world.
We have need based cut offs for a lot of things, though. Some people, for instance, get food stamps, but I make too much to be eligible. The government figures I have enough money to buy my own food without their help.
I’d imagine this program is similar, in that the government feels that certain people can afford to send their kids to private schools without the government’s help.
Higher education costs are rocketing upwards and have been for some time, far outstripping the pace of inflation. While I don’t have cites for it, I suspect that some of that is due to the availability of money and the fact that various programs, both public and private, make it possible for most students to raise the money required to attend college.
But the number of college students in the United States is much smaller than the number of elementary/secondary school students. And the number of college students supported by federal grants (as opposed to private scholarships, work-study, loans, etc.) is even smaller than that. What may be a workable system for post-secondary education isn’t necessarily transferable to DC schools.
Yes, it may not necessarily translate. But it very well may. Here’s how I look at it. We have determined that we want everyone to have at least baseline education. Collectively, we agree that is a good thing. Now how best to do that? One way is the Public School System as we know it. Maybe a good idea. Maybe the best idea. Maybe not. We do know that there are serious long term problems with some, primarily those in poor inner cities. Charter schools have been established in some of these areas—some have done very well, some have not. I have yet to hear of one of these public schools being turned around 180%. I have heard of charter schools doing that. Why not try more of what has shown to work. What is it about the one idea of pubic education—the one we know so well—that makes it not only the best idea, but the only idea worthy of our efforts (for some people)?
Why not encourage more charter and voucher schools? Start with charters replacing the worst of the worst. Then allow private voucher schools to come in and offer their services to other families in the neighborhood. Some can compete on academics, some on more trade-oriented pursuits. How do we know this will not be a better system? One other idea worthy of being tested was throwing money at the problem. This was done with the Kansas City Experiment. And it was shown to not work. The important thing is that we tried it. Why is it assumed that the public school system that has served us well in the past is the best thing to serve us now. I understand the religious objection, but SCOTUS has ruled that to not be a problem.