I didn’t respond to your post because I don’t believe in an all or nothing approach. I think it doesn’t make any sense to give vouchers to people who already can afford to send their kids to private schools.
I don’t have answers to some of your questions, but it seems that you can solve some of them by establishing certain standards to schools that participate in the voucher program. You set up some sort of accredidation so that a wacxkjob can’t just open a school in their garage. You make it a condition that they can’t discriminate on race, and so on. We already do similar things with Pell Grants.
Here’s delegate Holmes-Norton’s explanation of her opposition. Surprisingly enough, it’s not “I hate children” or “I hate Jesus” or “I must bow down before my lords and masters in the teacher’s unions.” In fact, she’s asked for a continuation of funding for chldren already in the program. (Note that this was an experimental pilot program, due to expire after five years anyway.) She simply feels that there’s better uses for the money. In D.C. several Catholic schools have closed and are converting to independently run Charter Schools. They could use the cash to help with the transition, and this seems to me–and to Ms. Holmes-Norton, apparently–a better use of money that would otherwise get tied up in a controversial program that has acheived dubious, limited results, and that might not even be approved by Congress.
And I have already said that they can knock themselves out just as soon as the private schools in question start taking every kid who shows up. It’s all fine and good to use terms like “hobbled by the public sector” but hereabouts private schools want to cherry pick their student population (and not just the smarter kids, either, some of them scout at sporting events as well), then trumpet their superior scores and number of graduates who go onto colleges and universities. And that’s what steams my beans. If someone wants to propose a voucher program that will actually fulfill the (thus far empty) promise of being concerned about kids and education of same, then let me hear about it. In other words, live in the real world as it exists. Warts and all. To date, though, every version of the latest voucher fad simply wants to divert money away from public education, which every child is entitled to, and redirect it toward private schools who will educate the kids that they want to, and the rest of the student population can go screw.
Now, do I think merit-based pay is a good idea? Yeah, in a lot of instances. Is there something to be said for teachers unions? Yeah, I think there is. Dunno what things are like in your neck of the world, but discipline is a problem in all schools around here. I think there ought to be more of it sometimes, but I’ve also seen firsthand how demoralizing too much discipline can be.
Can you point out to me how this particular voucher program is taking money away from the the schools? This particular voucher program is from a congressional grant. This isn’t coming out of a school budget.
Care to point out to me how abolishing the program will magically cause the schools to fix themselves? Or will the DC Public Schools continue in the same fashion?Its not like the schools got dilapidated overnight. It was years of neglect and poor management.
I like the voucher program in that it gives a few kids the opportunity to get a better education that they would get in the DC Public Schools. However having read Delegate Holmes Norton’s explanation it appears that the experiment was flawed in that students who didn’t meet the income cap were let in and students who were in private school were given subsidies. I hope that the Charter experiment goes well. I’m not a conservative and I am more supportive of experiments with vouchers in DC because the schools here are broken.
Monstro, the reason I didn’t address your point is that the particular program has a family income cap of 185% of the Federal Poverty Level. This translates to an average income of $23,000.00 per year per family. To buy in the Neighborhoods that are gentrifying or even in the ones that aren’t, requires a much higher income. At least here, the people with the opportunity tend to move to the counties with good public school systems when there kids are of a certain age. I will probably do the same thing when the time comes or I will send my kids to a private school.
Your concern about the possibility of fraud is well raised. There have been problems with some of the charter schools with mismanagement of funds. DC Charter Schools are managed by the DC Public Charter School Board. Thre is some oversight. The Charters operate on a lottery system. There are some that are good and some that aren’t. However, there have been cases of mismanagement in the DC Public Schools, and the DC government.
I never made that claim. Nor do I really care where the money is coming from if the program doesn’t do what it is designed to do.
I never made that claim either. The burden to show improvement is on voucher-supporters, since that’s the program that was created to… you know… improve things. Which it hasn’t.
But the ‘opportunity’ for a better education isn’t translating into an actual better education. I’m supportive of trying to fix schools too. But I am unsupportive of programs that haven’t been shown to do anything but make parents feel better about themselves. My personal preference is to do the opposite of what appears to be happening in most circumstances (state take-overs) and break up these huge school districts into many smaller ones to create easier to manage systems. I’m not against intervention. I’m against demonstrably failed intervention techniques.
I was replying to your response asking how it will fix the dilapidated schools. It won’t directly. It does get a few of these kids out of the schools. I think that the kids whose parents are involved enough and motivated enough to look into the vouchers and jump through the hoops are the ones whose kids will do better no matter where they are. And as the Delegate Holmes Norton pointed out, the study was flawed in that kids were let in who shouldn’t be let in. I think of the voucher program as an experiment to see if these kids show an improvement outside of the DC Public Schools.
There won’t be state intervention in DC because realistically there is no state to intervene. The major’s office has taken over and appointed a chancellor with expanded powers.
I don’t think that the problem is necessarily the size of the school district. Geographically, DC is only 63 square miles. The school system has approximately 50,000 students. Fairfax County, which has a very good school, system has approximately 164,000 students. Obviously, the students in Fairfax come from affluent families who tend to be involved in their kids education, (some might say, over involved).
The point that keeps sticking with me and that I don’t think has been satisfactorily answered is this: If vouchers are being given out for less than is being spent per pupil at a public school (say the public school spends 100/student and the vouchers are 75/student) then public schools end up with *more *money per student. How is that a negative for the public school system? People keep saying that these sorts of vouchers take away from the public schools, but at least at face value, that doesn’t seem to be the case at all.
Can someone please explain to me why more money per student is a bad thing for public schools? I am honestly very confused about this.
Reading through the pro-voucher folks comments it seems their end-goal is to just get the kids out of the DC schools and into a better environment rather than try to fix the real problem. I understand the sentiment, but it’s not a good approach to solving the actual problem. DC Public Schools aren’t going to stop sucking just because there’s less students attending them. Something needs to happen within the district, community and culture and writing certain parents checks isn’t going to accomplish that.
Again, how do you solve the problem? It’s not like there are two alternatives: undertake reforms to fix DC schools or try vouchers. The first option is pretty much a nonstarter since no reforms have worked in DC. Undertaking reform in no guarantee that those efforts will work.
DC schools have been noted for being pretty crappy since at least the 1950s. They have been trying to fix them for over fifty years. They just keep getting worse. You say that people should “try to fix the real problem” as if anyone knows how to do that. They clearly don’t. So, yes, the end goal is to get kids out of the system. Sure, keep trying to fix DC schools, but since there is no evidence that any efforts are or will work, there is no point in forcing kids to stay in those schools.
You say that DC schools aren’t going to quit sucking because there are fewer students attending them. Well, they aren’t going to quit sucking by continuing the ineffective “reform” programs that have been tried for years. It’s a much better alternative to let those who want to opt out of these schools do so.
I think that the schools are fixable but I don’t think that there is the political will to do so. Look at what happens every time they want to close some of the underutilized schools. Parents get into an uproar, the council interferes and lo and behold nothing gets shut down.
I wonder if all big cities are as dysfunctional as DC seems to be.
DC has the added “benefit” of Congressional meddling, as well. Anything the mayor and council passes has to be approved by Congress, and every DC official knows that Congress retains the right to revoke home rule at any time. Nobody who is at all responsive to the people of DC has any real authority.
Well, in DC, some of the charter schools are working, and we’ll have to see if any of Rhee’s changes have any effect. I do think putting the school board into the mayor’s control was a good idea.
I found the Georgetown report interesting. After a few years in the program, the parents now feel that they can focus on academics now that their safety concerns are handled. It is sad that their primary concern was safety.
Actually, that’s not true. I believe that Congress retains the right to repeal any act of the DC government it doesn’t like, but it doesn’t have to approve everything. Congress stays pretty much out of DC’s business, except for doing things like taking away power from the mayor when Marion Barry was re-elected. I don’t think the city was worse off because of that.
If you want legit reasons why conservatives are pro-voucher:
They believe in a market system, with choice. Parents should be able to send their kids to science focused schools, art focused schools, religious focused schools, military schools, trade focused schools, or any other varient. Conservatives would argue that as long as the core is taught, the electives should be available.
They want to break the teacher unions. Those unions have become Democrat stalwarts, so the conservatives are happy to hurt them.
They send their kids to private school, and they want to reduce their costs. They feel that if their kid does not go to the local public school, some portion of that money should be allocated to the private school.
There is no secret desire to build an uneducated underclass, since that group just as easily votes Democrat as it does Republican.
I don’t know what the solution is (though I have a suggestion that I posted about). I understand that it is a complex issue with no clear-cut answers and mountains of difficulty. I was pointing out vouchers didn’t appear to be working either.
There are other ways to reform than what’s been tried. Vouchers now have been tried and they’re not getting results either. “Getting kids out of the schools” doesn’t seem like a very realistic end. There are always going to be kids left, and it’s these kids/parents that get left behind that are going to keep dragging down the system. There’s no way that they’re just going to blow up the DC Public Schools and start over with a new system from scratch. That’s why I suggested the possibility of breaking it up into smaller districts and giving multiple people/boards/communities a whack at it and see what sticks in their own communities. This sounds like a very ‘conservative’ or ‘Republican’ idea and I don’t get why more folks aren’t inclined to agree that giving a school back to its neighborhood (rather than city/county/larger geographic school district area) could be a good thing.
Well, spaz, I’m all for continuing to try to reform DC schools. However, the kids should not be forced to remain in those schools when they clearly don’t work now. And, given the history of past reform, those schools will be the same or worse off after future reforms. By all means, let DC public school administrators try and reform the schools. But also give every kid there a voucher. If the schools succeed in reform, they will get the students. If they don’t, then the kids won’t be forced to continue attending horrible schools. If school administrators were actually penalized for failure (losing money) or rewarded for success (more voucher kids spending their money at their schools) perhaps the sad track record of school reform in DC would be different.
There ARE community colleges that will take anyone with a GED.
The public schools of the 50 largest metro areas have a graduation rate of 51.8% (DC is 58.2%). That sucks (pdf report here: www.americaspromise.org/uploadedFiles/AmericasPromiseAlliance/Dropout_Crisis/SWANSONCitiesInCrisis040108.pdf )
Your debt level depends on your school and the job you take. My college debt lasted less than 5 years (private university, no parental support). My grad school debt will last 15 years by choice (interest rate is below 2%, no incentive to pay it off - I will inflate my way out of debt first).
I don’t think that helps matters any, but the city has plenty of dysfunction that can’t be blamed on Congress. City services are often incompetent and frankly no one seems to give a damn. A vacant house near me was being taxed at too low a rate for almost four years and despite calls to the City to fix it, nothing was done until recently. This happens all over the place. The Jacks case highlighted some rather disturbing inefficiencies in the Child Welfare department.
DC recently had the scandal in the Tax Office where employees stole ten million over a few years. They were only caught because a bank employee got suspicious and tipped off authorities.
I think Congress’s meddling hasn’t helped matters any although I think things got better when the Congress stepped in and put the control board in place with respect to the City’s finances.