The paper you quote is by The British Parliament (less than 10% represeneted) to the British Government. No input from the Scottish Government.
Hardly a level playing field!
Talk about head in sand politics
“The Government is not planning for Scottish independence as it is of the view that Scotland benefits from being part of the UK and the UK benefits from having Scotland within the UK. The UK Government is therefore confident that the people of Scotland will choose to remain part of the UK, and is not planning for any other outcome.”
(Can I go off on a tangent for just a second?
As someone who has personal links to both the UK and Spain, I’ve been following the processes in Catalonia and Scotland very closely. I am still amazed by the amount of literature that has been produced regarding post-referendum scenarios in Scotland. There’s the official website; one by the central government; tonnes of white papers and proposals regarding what an independent Scotland would look like…
Catalonia is supposed to be holding a similar referendum in November, and yet voters are not given any meaningful information. No-one has bothered to create an official website with basic information, the Catalan government has been useless at making serious proposals, and the Spanish government is trying its best to ignore the whole issue. Regardless of the final result of the Scottish referendum, I think both sides can be proud of how well they are driving the process)
IIRC the referendum is not recognised by and opposed by the central government.
Exactly, and that’s probably the reason why not much real discussion has taken place. But I really think that if the Catalan government openly explained what kind of independent country they want Catalonia to be, their cause would gain much support. Until that happens, all debates will have to deal with whether or not Catalonia has the right to hold a referendum - those debates take us nowhere.
Actually UK governments are not bound by the results of a referendum.
If the UK parliment does not agree to the law, it won’t be passed.
There will also be a general election in the UK before the great day planned by the SNP:
Scottish Independence vote - September 18th 2014
UK General Election - latest date 7 May 2015
Scottish Independence day proposed by SNP - 24 March 2016
Scottish Parliament General Election - Thursday 5 May 2016
Now it will require an Act of Parliament to change the constitution to create an Independent Scotland. It would also require whatever party is elected to allocate parliamentary time to debate the Act in all its detail.
So…will the other parties take note of the Scottish vote and include this in their program of legislation.
Curiously enough, the rest of the UK is not much interested in Scottish independence and may well balk at the expense of it all.
The terms on which independence might be granted will have to take into account the concerns of everyone involved, both north and south of the border.
During these debates, the implications of various forms of independence will become clear and there will be an opportunity for the affected areas to make representations.
At the moment, the SNP is alone in wanting independence and has defined the terms, which are clearly extravagant in their assumptions regarding who pays for it all.
The other parties will come up with their own ideas about how independence can be achieved and these will attempt to be more balanced. Whoever wins the UK General election may well find that the principle problem the UK faces: managing the economic recovery, might be hamstrung by some of the big bills associated with independence.
It will be interesting to see what their manifestos say about it. If Scotland votes against independence, it may still get some extra power for the Scottish Parliament. If it votes for independence, they will get something, but that will be at the discretion of the UK government.
These things will not happen overnight, that is clear from the discussion we have already had concerning the future of the nuclear deterrent.
Mr Salmond and the SNP may well proclaim Scotland to be independent on the 5th May, 2016. But the progress in that direction will be qualified by the competing demands of the rest of the legislative programme. Scotland is 8% of the UK and only a fraction of that electorate will be keen on independence. Any UK government should take that into account.
This campaign won’t really get going until the end of May when funded campaigns are due to start. At the moment it is all positioning statements. They are just warming up, like a game of tennis. However, whatever the outcome of the independence vote, not a lot will happen before the May 2015 General election. Maybe some advisory committees will begin hearing evidence if the vote for independence succeeds, the new government will need some official advice if it decides to start working on legislation.
So Anglocentric. And so frightened!
HMG has said it will stand by the result of the referendum. There is nothing, following a positive vote, to stop Scotland unilaterally declaring independence and applying for UN membership- no London Government would push it that far.
It is sad that you are so blinkered to the reality of what life would be like if the London Government refused to abide by the terms of the referendum- I have not even heard such rubbish from the Worse Apart campaign.
It is worth pointing out that Independence is supported by the SNP, the Greens and the Scottish Socialist Party, and Solidarity. Many non identifies voters would also support independence as would many from the pro-Unionist parties- as many SNP members and voters support the Union.
It is not an SNP matter, but a Scottish one.
This government does not speak for the next.
And would you like to tell us how many MPs that illustrious roster of other parties can muster? Does it get into double figures?
Scottish Independence is the hobby horse of the SNP who are intent on wasting everyones elses time and money on their political project.
Any ambitious Scot who has talent and ambition will head for the London. Those that wish to stay at home, trying to turn Scotland into some sort of Nordic backwater can spend their career arguing the parochial concerns of SNP and be entertained by the deluded ambitions of their leader.
In September, we will see how the vote goes, see what sort of mess has to be cleared up.
So for me to voice an objection to Scottish independence is characterised by you as someone who is ignorant of Scottish people in general? Nice.
I don’t believe that, you’ve advocated strong independence stances in this thread throughout. Which again is fine, I don’t see what the big deal is. In regards to your viewpoint on England, it is not objective, and hardly comparable considering Scotland has a population of 5 million and an economy worth £149 billion.
How can you seriously call yourself an objective observer of this poll and say you’re ‘on the fence’ when you say such things like this?
Why can’t people be worried about the future of the state of Britain being destroyed? That’s what it will lead too, it’s a legitimate fear, and it’s a legitimate worry for a large proportion of Scottish people who are Unionist, you know, that demographic which cannot be ignored either.
How is it head in the sand, they’re not going to provide a road map to independence, because they believe in the continued Union, anything other than that would be a sign of weakness.
Or New York. Or Paris. Or Edinburgh, since there will be a lot of opportunity there in a newly independent nation. Where are you posting from, AD 1830?
Could be more like New Zealand, where the number of posts available for anyone who wants a professional career is so small that most people pack their bags and head for their bigger neighbour to make a career.
It is entirely possible, that can’t be denied. But it could also be argued that Scottish independence would have the opposite effect. At the moment, many ambitious Scots (particularly in the area of politics and social science, which is what I deal with) are based in London because that’s where all the good jobs are. The UK being a union with headquarters in London, it makes sense for people from all around to gravitate towards there.
An independent Scotland, if she plays her cards well, could reverse the trend. I can see there being many more government, foreign service and research jobs in Edinburgh than there are right now; and therefore less of an incentive for successful Scots to leave the country. It all depends on a very big if, but it is entirely possible.
Same with Ireland, I’m not sure small predominantly Anglophone nations will ever be immune to such brain drain. Huge economies like England’s, US, Canada etc. will always attract talent. I suppose the question is whether the amount of talented Scots heading south will increase noticeably after independence and whether Scotland can attract the talent it needs from elsewhere.
Should Skottish independence go badly, the Shetland and Orkneys have their own legal get-out-quick clause allwong them to rejoin Norway.
If would be amusing to watch the Scottih government trying to argue that they should not be allowed self-determination.
The opening of my local hospital had, among its unexpected effects, the return of many healthcare professionals who’d spent their whole professional lives elsewhere. I think about half the doctors in the initial roster and more than 2/3 of nursing personnel had been born within 30km of it.
There may also be opportunities to attract foreign companies; after all, “it’s a short hop from Edinburg/Glasgow to London” works both ways.
That is a bit of an urban myth.
In September we shall see the will of the Scottish people and if they vote for independence, we shall see a fast exit from the union.
The UK, having agreed to a plebiscite on separation is securely bound by the United Nations declaration on self-determination.
Whatever the result I look forward to a Scotland with more independence of action as there is already a tranche of new powers about to be devolved, and a close vote next year will be a further bargaining power for more devolution. I also think that it is a ratchet efffect- if we vote for independence, then it will follow swiftly; if the result is a close ‘No’, further demands will be made for Independence, especially if we are headed into ten years of Tory rule as I suspect we are!
There could only be a fast exist from the Union if all the problems were easy and straightforward to solve. You make light of them, but the difficulties are many and the solutions expensive. They are not, the countries have been united for 300 years, it will envitably be difficult and take many years.
I am not sure what sort of world you think we are living in. The world does just fall into place in agreement simply because some politician struts around proclaiming a cause.
Please try to keep in mind a distinction between what is a political party, what is a parliament and what is the constitution of a sovereign nation.
Scotland is a nation, the Scottish parliament is an elected body with devolved powers within the context of the UK state. While the SNP may have as its principle policy, the separation of Scotland into a nation state, it is one of several parties in Scotland and most don’t share that view.
The Union of Scotland and England has lasted a long time, because it has been good for both nations. I cannot imagine it surviving so long if it had not. The SNP vision of independence is deeply flawed. It seems to depend largely on everyone else picking up the bill for the considerable expenses involved. Moreover, the plan is for rather more than an independent Scotland, isn’t it? It is an independent Scotland with a constitution loaded with SNP policies. Don’t imagine that such a partisan constitution will go unchallenged by the other parties in Scotland.
I will vote for which ever party in the UK shoves the majority of those expenses north of the border. There is little incentive for anyone in the rest of the UK, or indeed Scotland, to finance the SNPs vanity project.