You’ve took on the mantle of an Englishman who’s more Scottish than the Scots themselves. You support the SNP, you regard your kids as Scottish, again, all of which is fine, but don’t pretend to be objective, or ‘on the fence’
Here are some remarks you’ve made within the thread which can be characterized as being something of an anti-English sentiment. There’s plenty of Irish who support English football teams but have anti-English feelings, and that’s fine.
All to do with the political reactions of English people, rather than themselves as individuals.
I feel quite warm towards those English people I know and am related to by blood. I have problems with some of their attitudes towards non-English people.
:rolleyes:
Again, I have no problem with your attitude to being apathetic to English people, that’s your decision, but don’t pretend you are not when the evidence is on the contrary.
I will ask you to stop making unfounded conclusions from a few postings on a board about a contentious issue.
You are mistaken in your beliefs about my English identity.
I suspect there is some strange defensive mental mechanism on your part at play here!
Isn’t that so typically English! lol.
You’re attaching anti-English sentiments on your posts, it’s the reason why I have raised the issue, because you’ve made the issue of Englishness as something which is negative towards being Scottish (and it has become more frequent throughout the thread) Which I disagree with.
Might I remind you of this remark?
Uh, yeah. I was just making a joke riffing off your guys’ back and forth there.
Sure. But you’ve also complained about anti-English attitudes in Scotland. So even if you personally don’t see this as an ‘annoying housemate’ problem, there seem to be people who do. Hence my question: may independence soothe this animosity? Would English-hating Scots have less of a reason to hate the English if they were neighbours rather than housemantes?
I’ve complained about anti-English attitudes by an Englishman who lives in Scotland and in my opinion, tries to act more (How he sees it) Scottish than the Scots in order to integrate, which is wrong because no one will respect you unless you respect who you are (Just like many Scots, Irish and Welsh do)
People will find any reason to hate given the chance, I wouldn’t be surprised even if independence was granted, that people who hate the English wouldn’t have their attitudes changed.
This I agree with, I think the UK is sleepwalking into disaster, and I think, there wouldn’t be much support for independence if government was devolved on a national level across the UK.
This statement I can agree with fully.
At first, the idea sounded terrible to me, because I assumed it was chauvinist. Then I saw/heard a lecture by Tariq Ali, pointing out that those factors are not what’s at work here, and that Scottish independence/autonomy could strike a blow against neoliberalism. Now it seems like a great idea.
Striking a blow against neoliberalism, by destroying the country, great. It’s annoying that most people on the left are clamouring to destroy the Union, rather than rescuing it from the clutches of their opponents (By reforming it)
Why would dividing two people into two separate states even make cause celebre for people against neo-liberalism? IMO it would just make it easier for them to do their job, and by no way is it guaranteed that Scotland would forever follow the ‘Scandinavian model’
That article is nothing but a thinly veiled piece of political opportunism for the likes of Tariq Ali to take a swipe at the current political establishment, not Scottish ‘freedom and independence’
And it goes in line with my thinking that anyone on the left spectrum is being lead to believe;
Unionism = Little Englander, Establishment, Rich, Right Wing, Tory, Oppessor
Pro-independence = Liberal, Anti-Establishment Social-Democrat, Left Wing, Oppressed Scot
The narrative has been hijacked.
The country would not be destroyed, it would be divided. No need to get overly dramatic.
Unfortunately, it seems like a majority in England is quite happy having a right wing government. Hell, many of them will even vote UKIP because the Conservatives are not radical enough! How will the Scottish people, who apparently view things differently, reform the Union? It just seems impossible!
Of course not, and there’s no guarantee that the UK will forever follow the ‘neoliberal (God I hate that word) model’. But as of today, Scotland’s best chances of pursuing the Scandinavian model are through independence. Or do you expect a left-wing revolution at the national level within the next few months?
Correct. I can’t stand Tariq Ali myself, and I really hope that Scottish voters head to the referendum with something more that "God, I hate British neoliberalism’ on their minds.
While that is essentially correct, I think that this can partly be blamed on the Better Together campaign. They’ve done a half-arsed job, chosen some terrible representatives, made some awful arguments, and generally done very little to dispel those stereotypes. How many truly left-wing voices have been heard from the Better Together camp? All we have is Alistair Darling happily siding with the Conservatives in an attempt to portray independence as a potential disaster, that’s it!
Britain as a national entity would be destroyed, as one of the founding members has left the Union. The term ‘British’ would have no value. It is a dramatic issue.
They are only happy because they have no credible alternative, either vote the Tories in, or keep Labour in who are viewed (Rightly or wrongly) As being responsible for the financial crisis of 2008. Scottish people can have a devolved Parliament with a lot of room to do what they want, doesn’t have to necessitate a separation of Scotland and England, does it?
How is it the best way? Scottish people haven’t even been given the option of devolution max yet.
A better question would be why are truly left wing voices afraid to voice any pro-union sentiment?
Better Together is a cross party coalition. It’s not just Tories with a few Labour figureheads, Labour plays a prominent part because some of their voting heartlands are in Scotland.
Are you aware of the history of the term “British”? Right up until the union, it was used to refer to the indigenous minority (Cornish and Welsh) in contradistinction to English and Scottish.
It’s a bit irritating to hear that you couldn’t possibly give up a term your newish nation stole and co-opted within relatively recent history.
Here are some cites from the OED:
1.a. Of or relating to the Brittonic-speaking peoples originally inhabiting all of Britain south of the Firth of Forth before and during the Roman occupation.
OE Poenitentiale Theodori & Capitula d’Acheriana (Brussels) in F. J. Mone Quellen u. Forschungen zur Geschichte der teutschen Literatur u. Sprache (1830) 519 Ða ðe beoð gehadede fram Scyttiscum preostum oððe bisceopum, oððe fram Bryttiscum.
OE Anglo-Saxon Chron. (Tiber. B.i) anno 508, Her Cerdic & Cynric ofslogan anne brittiscne [lOE *Laud *bryttiscne] cing.
Most of the use of the word for the first thousand years of its attestation either refers to the name of the island, or to the Welsh and / or Cornish or their ancestors.
There are four citations before 1603 (the Union of the crowns) for “British” meaning “of Britain.” The first two, one in Old English and one from 1398, clearly refer to geography. The earliest use of “British” to mean “of the nation governed from London in post-Roman times” is from 1548:
Hall’s Vnion: Henry VI f. cv, The lorde of Rustinan Marshall of Britayn, assembled a greate company of the Britishe nacion, whiche fortefied & repaired the toune of Pountorson.
Taking party political stance on a constitutional change as big as this a mistake (except perhaps for the SNP for which the issue is its raison d’etre and its only clear policy.)
Tariq Ali is an old Marxist chancer who is just taking a pot shot at his class enemy. With friends like that, you don’t need enemies.
I’d say you sound pretty anti-English. Not quite raving. The fact that you are English doesn’t surprise me, because the kind of anti-Englishness you display is the same that many left-wing people possess. It sounds like you see yourself as apart from the vast majority of English people (geography aside), perhaps because of your politics. You’re left-wing, but all of England is Tory or worse, right? As Batistuta says:
The fact is that many of us are not like that. We would never have Labour governments if millions of English people didn’t vote for them. The now-hated London tends to be rather left-wing. Unfortunately, the popular thing for much of the English left to do (and I consider myself, generally, to be one of them) is to stand on the outside and tut about how racist, sexist and generally bigoted everyone else is. Perhaps there is far greater potential for the left to influence things in England, if only they would get together as English people instead of standing aloof, certain they’re not really part of England or this system because England is ignorant Daily Mail readers, and the system is The Sheriff of Nottingham. The funny thing is that this kind of generalization should be anathema to the left.
Why not the Greens, and possibly some of the LibDems, or better yet, the various other progressive parties? If Labour and the Tories are both part of the neoliberal post-1980 establishment consensus, and they are, why not vote for someone else? If the Scots are aware of this, why not the English, Welsh, and Northern Irish?
I ask the same question of the US all the time, but at least there are more visible, office-holding parties in the UK.