YOU know that. Not everyone appears to know how long things take, and chronically underestimate. In fact I just read somewhere a few days ago (NYT?) that this is so common that there is a name for it, Planning Fallacy. A number of studies have shown this is a general character trait. People believe that they will do better next time.
That’s not what I said. I said that many people WANT and INTEND to be punctual but cannot seem to manage it, feel bad about it.
And does she care about those looks?
Got a friend who’s always late. What you described in your post and this video are 100% the reasons why.
Look at it this way… if you schedule a meeting at work, are you planning on starting at 1300, or are you planning on having everyone show up at 1300, mill around a bit, sit down, get situated, and start at 1305?
That’s the real reason for showing up a little bit before- so the event starts on time, not so everyone shows up AT time, and then whatever getting settled stuff takes place after the actual start time.
Some of us have answered it, multiple times. Let me try again in somewhat different wording: Because being ready to do something at a specific time takes a huge amount of our attention, mental energy, and ability to get anything else done. We may indeed be able and willing to do this in order to accomplish something for which that exact time does matter (although we may only be able to accomplish it by showing up way ahead of time), but that’s the price we’re paying to do so; and expecting us to do that for everything in our lives is a whole lot less reasonable than those who are demanding punctuality in all instances seem to think.
Again, I probably wouldn’t have just sat there in the parking lot; at least, unless I had something with me to read or work on that I thought was at least as interesting as hanging out in the bar.
If I’d called him, or run him down inside the building, and said ‘hey, I’m really hungry, are you ready to go yet?’ and he’d said ‘nah, I’m gonna finish talking, I’m not hungry yet’ I’d probably have been annoyed at that. If he’d said ‘whoops got talking and lost track of the time’ and said goodbye to the other person, no, I wouldn’t have been angry. And, bear in mind, while I’m outside the building I don’t know what’s holding him up. Is his boss yelling at him? Is he on the phone with a family emergency? Did the friend he’s talking to just come to him with an issue causing the friend serious distress, and he’s trying to help? Did he get handed at 3:40 a two-hour piece of work that needs to be done tonight? Yes, in that last case he could call me; but if he can call me, I can call him. And in the first three, maybe he can’t call me right then.
If it turned out he’d already left for the bar with somebody else and hadn’t bothered to let me know – that I’d be pissed at.
I would think that they shouldn’t be bitching at me and that if they were the sort of person who would bitch at me because they were late then they were probably the sort of person who would bitch at me, and at other people, for other things that were their own fault. I’d be mad at them for bitching at me; but that’s a different issue.
OK, here’s the entirety of your first paragraph:
And I’m going to give you the same answer: if you think saying I’m going to pick you up to go to the mall at 10 requires the same degree of punctuality as saying I’ll pick you up at 10 to take you to the airport, you need to specify that when making appointments; because there are a whole lot of people who don’t mean it that way.
If your being ready by 10 poses you difficulties starting the previous night and, instead of making you think that they may have had greater difficulties, that makes it really important to you that you be able to leave on time, then tell them that. In advance. Or ask them if they can’t make it 11 instead.
And to say that this sort of misunderstanding amounts to “completely devaluing the other person, saying you, what you want, and your time are completely unimportant to me” – ay yi yi. If what you want is completely unimportant to them, why did they show up to take you to the mall in the first place? If they clearly show that they value you in other ways, why do you feel “completely devalued?” If they do devalue you in other ways, why do you want to go to the mall to them to start with?
The only thing it’s showing is that you and the other person have different senses of time.
Judging by my experience with meetings: most people are planning on B, and often on starting more at 1310 or 1315 than at 1300. Even some of the meetings that say they start at 7:30 with half an hour explicitly allowed for registration and getting situated often don’t start the first session right at 8.
I do know some meetings that are expected to start dead on time. But IME not the majority. And I am not in the least surprised, and not ticked off, if I schedule a meeting and the attendees are clearly expecting B. If we’ve got a limited time for the meeting, I’m pretty good at keeping an agenda on track and moving once we get started; which also IME is by far the bigger problem with wasted time at meetings.
My neighbor is blaming me because she lost her job. Here’s how it happened.
Neighbor asked me to take her and her dog to dog’s vet appointment at 11:30. This is a 30-45 minute drive at the best of times. We agreed to leave at 10:30, just to be sure. I was at her home at 10:30. We left at 11:10. We got to the vet at 11:45 and missed her appointment. The vet was willing to work her in, but didn’t know when, so I left her there. The vet was able to see her at 3:00, she called me at 3:15 and I picked her up at 4:00. I got her home at 4:45. She was scheduled to be at work at 5:00, but didn’t get there until almost 6:00. Her boss, tired of her showing up late, fired her.
Somehow, this is all my fault. It is a shame, her dog is a real sweetie and does need regular vet visits. I hope she can suck someone else with a car in because she won’t be getting any more rides from me.
If I didn’t want pick up at 10 then why would I say I wanted picked up at 10? If I say “I want to leave at 10.” read my mind and tell me what time do I really want to leave. And again, I am ready at 10 and you roll up at 10:30 so you really don’t value my time. I like how you are blaming the other person when they give a specific time and you twist that into “even though you gave me a specific time, you didn’t make it clear that you wanted picked up at that specific time.” So tell me what I’m thinking in this scenario. “Hey thorny locust, can you pick me up at 10am to go to the mall?” What time am I really thinking of leaving? And let’s say you know when I say 10 that I mean I am ready at 10 because you know that’s the type of person I am. Now what’s you excuse for not picking me up at 10:30? And that is not even answer to the question of WHY you are late. We agreed to pick me up at 10. Why can’t (or didn’t) you get there on time?
And again for like the umpteenth time - the question is about people that are ALWAYS late. The question is not about leaving to the mall late. The question is why are you a half-hour late picking me up to go to the mall AND a half-hour late when I’m picking you up for your doctor’s appointment AND a half-hour late picking me up from work everyday AND a half-hour late getting ready for the movies so we miss the first 15 minutes AND …
I think some of the posters here have unintentionally given us a big reason why some people are always late. “Don’t you care that I’m always waiting for you? Don’t you care that I’m always late because you can’t stick to a schedule we agree to?” “Nope, its all about me and I don’t care.”
If I aready know that, that changes the entire picture. Exactly what I’ve been trying to tell you is that you need to let people know that you’re like that.
But why? That’s my question. THAT"S what I’m trying to find out.
If I say to pick me up at 10 why would you presume that 10:30 is OK? Why would you not pick me up at the default time of 10?
As an ancillary to that, why is it MY fault that when I said pick me up at 10 I didn’t emphasize that I really honestly truly meant 10? Why is it not YOUR fault for assuming that agreeing to 10 didn’t really mean 10? Why is the default a different time than agreed to?
Because you are not important.
So that I know to say ‘sorry, I can’t give you a ride to the mall.’ At least, unless it’s the only way you can get groceries or some such; in which case, see next paragraph.
And so that, if you need a ride to the vet or the doctor instead (which I will still give you if you can’t find anybody else to do it, because no it’s not all about me and yes I do care what happens to other people, and to their cats), I can warn you that, unless you live right next door, the only way for me to guarantee that I’ll be there by 10 is to tell you that I’ll arrive sometime between 9 and 10; and, presuming you’re not actually in the shower in which case I’ll wait till you get out and get your pants on, I’ll be expecting you to let me in.
It’s been explained over and over in this thread why some people have major difficulty getting anywhere at a precise time. And it’s been explained over and over in this thread that not everyone thinks a trip to the mall has to start at a precise point; a lot of people, including a lot of entire social groups, do indeed think of such times as approximate.
I’m not going to deliberately aim for 10:30; but if you didn’t say anything about its being important not to leave later, I am likely to think that, for a trip to the mall, you’d rather take a chance on my showing up at 10:30 than at 9:00 or 9:30.
And, for a trip to the mall, I fail to see why your desire to leave your presumably comfortable house at a precise instant automatically trumps my desire not to screw up my schedule, my ability to work, and my overall state of mind for that morning and the previous night in order to attempt to get there exactly on time. Are you not supposed to realize that it’s not all about you, and to care about what you’re doing to me?
How about instead of deciding without discussion or compassion that either of us is being “completely devalued” we either work out between us that I’ll be there sometime between 10 and 10:20 or else I’ll call, and if that won’t work for you then you get to the mall in some other fashion, but without writing me off as somebody who doesn’t care at all about anybody else?
Some of these late people posts excuses are almost as weird as a Kel_Varnson_Latex_Division OP. One of my favorite old threads and the first reply by Kalhoun is comic gold, Jerry, comic gold!
@thorny_locust , we get you think you are actually physically and mentally unable to be on time. Even if we agreed with that, how can you not see that you are in the wrong about it, not to mention blaming on-time people for your problem? If 90 + % of the US population can manage to usually be on time and you can’t, that is your fault, people shouldn’t need to have special ways to deal with you. It’s the whole social contract thing, have you heard of it?
Aren’t you some type of farmer? I’ve done the farm thing and it requires a lot of repetitive chores, how can you not know how long it takes you to do them? Plus, things need to be done when they need to be done, not when you get around to it. If you try to sell your crop three months later than everyone else, you may be disappointed.
I just do not understand how people can not take responsibility for their actions. It will not kill you to admit this may fall on your shoulders and not everyone who has dealings with you.
So your boss says, “Thorny Locust, you are scheduled to start work at 8am. You always show up at 8:30. Why can’t you be here on time?” Will you blame your boss for not telling you how important it is to be on time? Will you explain that him wanting to be on time does not automatically trump your desire not to screw up your morning schedule (snooze button 3 times, 50 minute schedule, etc.), your Starbucks run, and your overall state of mind for that morning and the previous night in order to attempt to get there exactly on time.
Because that’s what I’m talking about. You cherry-picked one scenario and are claiming that in that one case it is OK to be late (I clearly disagree but whatever). That’s not the question. It’s not only why are you late to pick people up for the mall, it’s also you being late to work, and doctor appointments, and late picking people up for job interviews, and late picking your kids up from practice, etc. Are you going to generalize your response to all of those situations as to why your always late? It’s the other person’s fault for not clarifying a certain time means a certain time and by recognizing they are inconveniencing you when you agree to a time?
Are you not supposed to realize that it’s not all about you, and to care about what you’re doing to me?
I guess I have my answer.
How about instead of deciding without discussion or compassion that either of us is being “completely devalued” we either work out between us that I’ll be there sometime between 10 and 10:20 or else I’ll call, and if that won’t work for you then you get to the mall in some other fashion, but without writing me off as somebody who doesn’t care at all about anybody else?
Because (in the scenario) you agreed to 10 - not between 10 and 10:20 so you made a commitment. If you can’t commit to 10 then say, “I’ll try my best but all I can guaranty is I’ll be there before 10:30.” And to that point, the one Little Nemo ignores, what if it is YOU that sets the time. “Hey Thorny Locust, can you give me a ride to the mall?” Sure Saint Cad, I’ll pick you up at 10am" “Thanks dude, I’ll be ready at 10.” Now what’s your validation for being there at 10:20?
Mental disability is NOT an excuse to be rude to others.
Look, I have been inadvertently rude to others all my life. Not by being late, but because of other things that I can’t help doing, or that I didn’t know I was doing, or that I didn’t know other people cared about because it never meant anything to me. Lots of stuff. And I bet you have too.
And yet you cannot be empathetic enough to give anyone – anyone – the benefit of the doubt that maybe it wasn’t about YOU, and their lack of respect toward YOU and how YOU are always on time and perfect because YOU manage your time so well and and even if your wife just committed suicide and you broke your leg you would still be on time because it is so fucking important to be on time. Because, R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Because being late, to YOU, is like someone just punched you in the face because he didn’t like your smile, it is just that unconscionable, just that pathological. Unforgivable!
I recently saw a post on next door asking for someone to collect and deliver a bookcase for them. They estimated the drive at ten minutes, but the rough addresses they gave involved at least half an hour, probably more like an hour - could even be more. This is inner London - you could spend ten minutes just getting past the first set of traffic lights, and this even involved crossing the river.
I bet they’re habitually late. It reminded me of a friend who occasionally made me late, pre Google maps and other ways of checking a new location yourself, by claiming something was five minutes’ walk away, when in reality it was 25 minutes at a fast walking pace. I learnt to add extra time to his estimates.
It’s like they feel it should be this short amount of time to get there, therefore it is, reality be damned. Traffic lights and traffic jams don’t exist, and you can walk or drive straight through buildings rather than actually on the road. Every time they’re proven wrong, it must just have been a bad day, I guess.
Don’t know what kind of farming you’re doing. I’m doing direct market fresh produce. There are a whole lot of different jobs involved and nearly every one of them can take more or less time depending on factors ranging from whether the equipment breaks down to what the soil texture/moisture is when I’m hand transplanting to how heavy the crop is that needs harvesting that day to whether in the middle of harvesting I see a batch of potato beetles and have to make time to do something about that to whether an on-farm customer shows up unexpectedly to whether a thunderstorm comes over the hill so I need to haul everything I don’t want drenched out of the field and back out there again when it dries back out – I could go on.
And yes, things need to be done when they need to be done. Which is why if it didn’t rain when expected I may need to drop everything to deal with the irrigation (which will take longer if mice ate a hole in the header than if they didn’t), and when the tractor breaks down I need to deal with that, and if the weather turned hot there’s three times as many melons to harvest as expected but they can’t wait. None of this lends itself remotely to scheduling a set amount of work that will take a set amount of time between breakfast and lunch.
I didn’t say I’m physically and mentally unable to be anywhere on time. I said I’m unable to pull that off without difficulty, and in order to be absolutely sure of doing it I have to plan to show up early, with the result that if it is for something that essential sometimes I will show up early.
I’m entirely aware that there are people who don’t believe that any difficulty they don’t personally have, especially one not involving large amounts of obvious blood on the floor, could possibly exist.
Does 90% of the population manage to be consistently on time, without ever showing up early in order to pull it off? And even if they do, if 90% of the population can walk up three flights of stairs, does that mean that people who can’t show up if there’s no elevator are breaking the social contract?
And have you read anything I’ve said about how I deal with this? I am not expecting it to be anyone else’s problem; I am only expecting other people to recognize that the existence of the problem does not indicate either indifference or malice. And it will not kill you, if I do you the favor of giving you a ride someplace, for you to open the door and let me in if I show up early, having discussed this in advance.
It is indeed explicit in taking a job in this culture that if the job’s for set hours then one needs to be there for those hours.
I’ve worked at places where work started at a set time; and in that specific context, when they told me to be there by X, I took them to mean by or before X but not after. (The time clock was a pretty strong indication in itself.) I got there by the do-the-same-set-of-things-in-the-same-way-every-morning technique; which does not remotely work for doing people occasional favors. A number of others seemed to be using the get-there-way-ahead-of-time technique, which also doesn’t work well for most social situations.
And It would never be a matter of my always arriving at 8:30, even when I can’t use the set-routine trick. If I could always arrive exactly at 8:30, I could always arrive exactly at 8:00.
And that is exactly what I’ve been saying we would need to work out. Whichever of us first mentioned the time. Didn’t you read my saying that?
What I’m trying, apparently entirely unsuccessfully, to warn you of is that there are entire social circles in which it’ll be taken for granted that ‘let’s go to the mall, we’ll leave at 10’ means, unless specified otherwise, ‘somewhere around 10’, not ‘10-on-the-dot.’ This does not mean that no such people give a shit about each other. It means that you don’t possess the only set of social conventions in the world, and should recognize that people who follow another set are not just Doing Life Wrong. If they’re going to interact, they need to talk to each other, not just declare that the other people are being rude because there’s only One Way to do things.
But what if it’s you that want the ride?
If you have asked me for a ride to the mall and I agree to pick you up at 10:00, then whatever happens on your end is something that is more for you to deal with than for me. I don’t understand your state of mind. I don’t know how much having a precise time will affect you the night before.
I say this as someone who still struggles with anxieties, (although not as much as before). It’s not up to someone else to guess what problems you have. If you aren’t able to commit to a time frame, then don’t commit to a time frame. Let the person know in advance and then let them decide if they want to still agree to the activity.