No problem then. The cops aren’t racist, they’re just really bad at math. Thanks for solving it, Terr! I’m sure black people will stop worrying now… cops are just overestimating how dangerous they are! No problem, and no racism.
I’m not sure why. If you listen to the conservative posters, this is a marxist playground, but in fact I find the SDMB amazingly conservative. There’s people who will jump onto a grenade to defend cops no matter what they do, and racists are a protected class. That’s why this post is… checks… the first one I’ve made in 5 months.
It reminds me of how conservatives gripe about how “liberal” the “mainstream media” is, when it is just conservative status quo media-lite. When your entire worldview is so heavily skewed, even milquetoast well-to-do centrism like the SDMB is pinko commie BS that needs to be stopped.
And when the police are more likely to stop black people and search them for drugs, they’re only doing that because they know black people are more likely to have drugs. Which they know because they’re more likely to stop black people and search them for drugs. No problem here! It all checks out.
That’s not an interpretation - it is fiction. No one has said anything resembling “it doesn’t matter”, and you have ignored the explanation of how small changes are amplified.
You have already been corrected on this - the disproportionate treatment is not based on race and race alone. It is based on the fact that young black males commit a disproportionate amount of violent and street crime.
Thus if it is OK to criticize the organizational culture of the police, then it is OK to criticize the culture of young black males which encourages them to engage in crime and thus endanger their innocent fellows.
As Bone points out, your assumptions that the rate of police shootings should map exactly does not reflect much of an understanding of statistics.
[QUOTE=Marley23]
Once upon a time it was quite a shock when people discovered that suburban white kids were buying more hip hop albums than black kids in the city, but I’d have thought word would have gotten around by now.
[/QUOTE]
Let’s see a credible cite that this is true.
Make sure you have a detailed breakdown of what albums you mean, the evidence that shows the ages of the buyers, where they live, what color they are. Then explain why you are talking about numbers that are greater and not disproportionate.
Regards,
Shodan
Not ‘justify’. It could possibly explain part of the cause/impact. This is not a justification.
Wait. Would you say that it is likely that dogs that pose a greater threat to cops, statistically speaking, are more apt to be shot by cops? I’m sure there have been instances where a pit bull type dog who has never bitten anyone and has know intention of biting anyone runs up to a cop that happens in his yard and gets shot. The fact that black men have, statistically speaking, earned a reputation that they are more violent than white men is even accepted by people like Jesse Jackson. Add to that the likely location of the encounter—Newark or Watts vs Beverly Hills or New Canaan—and the disparity is quite understandable. Naturally, we should try to erase the disparity, but starting from the premise that “the cops are racist” is not helpful. A more effective dial to turn would be for blacks to stop being as violent as they are. Granted, that’s a difficult thing to fix, because the community is quick to dismiss and deflect rather than accept the responsibility and look inward, with the problem and they answer reside.
So, the community they they stop them in plays no role? How about the type of car their driving? How they are dressed. My guess is that a black guy in a suit and tie driving a Volvo is much less apt to be stopped and detained than a black guy with a rapper-type t-shirt, gold chains and gold teeth driving a black SUV with tinted windows.
Then I’m relieved to see that you think it does matter, and is a problem that we should solve.
This does not fully explain the disparity – the ratios are wildly different. The disproportionate street crime could only explain a portion of the disparate ratio of young black males being killed by police.
If you want to criticize the “culture of young black males” (whatever that means), feel free – start your own thread about it. It doesn’t fit here.
I don’t think there should be any disparity at all – police shouldn’t treat young black males at all differently than they treat young white males. I was only pointing out that even if I did accept it, that would only “explain” the disparity if the ratios were anything close to equal. They’re not close to equal, and thus this explanation is not satisfactory.
Do you think the black guy in a suit and tie and Volvo is more or less likely to be stopped than a white guy in a suit and tie and Volvo?
Good luck with an argument that indicts the vast majority of black people who are not violent. “Black people, stop being violent” just doesn’t come across as valid when you’re talking to people who are mostly not violent.
Or maybe it’s because most black people are not violent at all, so telling them that they are too violent is incredibly offensive (as well as just extremely foolish).
I’m coming back to this because this is infuriating. You’re saying to members of my family that they should stop being so violent because of their race. It’s disgusting if you really mean this.
If you’re just talking about the ones who are violent, then you’re going to have to say this. What you said is an indictment of millions, solely because of their race, who have done nothing wrong at all.
More likely. But of course you are ignoring my point. That skin color is one reason for heightened suspicion. There are others. Now you can answer my question. Which of the below do you think has a greeter likelihood of being stopped?
A) black guy in Brooks Brothers suit and driving a Volvo
B) black guy in a rapper-style t-shirt, gold chains and gold teeth driving black SUV with tinted windows
Obviously the second guy. I just don’t see how this particularly matters. While I don’t particularly like judging someone based on things like chains, clothes, and teeth, it’s not nearly as bad as judging them based on their skin color.
Simple question: do you think that black people are inherently more violent than white people? Are you assuming some strong correlation between violence and skin color? Or do you agree with me that black people are, in fact, capable of having a rate of violence that is no higher than that of whites of the same socio-economic class?
No, of course not.
Again with the judgment of groups. Most black people are non-violent. Of course black people are capable of being not violent and not criminals – most are not violent and not criminals.
It’s coming, but first I’ll take a moment to voice my astonishment. There are five to six times more white people than black in the U.S. Do you really think black people alone bought tens of millions of albums by Jay Z and Kanye and OutKast and 50 Cent and Eminem and on and on? The house band on The Tonight Show plays hip hop. You can’t possibly think it’s just black people who are listening to this music.
Anyway: the data here is fuzzier than I expected, but this WSJ story suggests 60% to 75% of people buying hip hop albums are white. While the music buying audience skews older - I could dig around for data from 10 or 15 years ago but this does become pointless after a while - younger people stream more music and download more music. The urban vs. suburban part may be based on oversimplifications or stereotypes by people in the music business. Still: a quick look at demographics of the U.S. makes the truth obvious. Toastmaker’s post was obvious stereotyping, and it was decades-out-of-date stereotyping.
No, I would not. Especially not without data. I also wouldn’t use this analogy in the first place in this thread, but too late.
Since it is mandatory that this quote be mentioned in all discussions of race, I thank you for bringing it up. I’m not sure what it has to do with the subject and Jackson didn’t address whether or not this reputation was earned so much as he commented on its existence, but someone did have to bring it up and now that’s done. Moving on.
I don’t know what this means. It sounds like you’re just repeating that black men are more violent but using a couple of stereotyped neighborhoods as a justification. Not every place black people live is Newark, and not every white neighborhood is Beverly Hills.
I didn’t start from that premise. That’s the fun part, of course. In any discussion of this issue that sentiment will be attributed to you if you think this state of affairs is less than perfect. It’s the easiest way to discount someone’s opinion.
We’re not discussing what would be “the most effective dial,” whatever dial you are talking about. We’re talking about
This is what thoughtful people describe as “the pathologizing of black people.” Every injustice or problem is passed off as some kind of community problem. It’s a nice excuse because it changes the subject away from unequal policing or sentencing laws or poverty or any number of other problems, even if those problems are acknowledged as real, to some vague and nebulous failure that maybe just maybe is related to the real and tangible problems.
I don’t agree. And why would it be OK for the police to engage in lazy, idiotic stereotyping like this? Do we live in some kind of cartoon world where everyone who wears a suit and drives a nice car can be assumed to be a good citizen and everyone who listens to a certain type of music and dresses a certain way deserves to be harassed based on superficial criteria?
As mentioned, no one suggested for an instant that it didn’t matter.
Of course it fits here - since police culture is not the sole source of the issue, it ought not to be the sole source of attention.
IOW you want the police to play “Let’s Pretend” that young black males do not commit a disproportionate amount of violent and street crime, so you can pretend it is all the fault of racist cops.
Bullshit, as ever, has a well-known liberal bias.
Regards,
Shodan
This gets to the problem. You’re taking things incorrectly, and in the worst possible way. If the members of your family are not violent, then they need to not change their behavior. It’s like telling people to stop smoking. If you don’t smoke you can ignore the advice.
But I will go further. It would serve the black community well if they had less tolerance for violence. I don’t fault blacks individually for tho, as I think the problem sprouts from the what has happened to the black family unit and the degree to which fathers are absent. It’s really a shame. And one that has consequences.
Police culture is actually the sole source of the issue – which is why the ratio is much, much higher than the ratio of young black men committing crimes.
I’m not pretending this at all. I recognize this – the ratio is high, it’s just not nearly 21 times. Why do you think the black-to-white ratio for getting killed by police is so much higher then the black-to-white ratio for committing violent crimes?
No, I asked for cites for what you said.
Please provide a breakdown of what albums you are talking about, the areas where the buyers of those albums lived, their SIRE, and their ages compared to each other.
You made a claim, and have not backed it up. Please do so, since this is GD and you alleged
I decline to accept your stereotypes are true until they are proven, and to reject others with the same basis.
Regards,
Shodan