The point is that we, and especially cops, are wired to protect ourselves. And that means assessing risk. Anyone who just sees skin color and ignores other cues is not using his head.
So while you’re speaking to “the black community”, most black people can ignore this “advice”. If you’re not speaking to the majority of black people, then why do you say you’re speaking to the “black community”?
My family has no tolerance for violence. Most black people do not tolerate violence. Again – if the vast majority of black people can ignore this recommendation, then why are you talking to “the black community”?
More like we shouldn’t talk about it at all.
By any measurement you can find, black people are more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by the police. Even though those searches are more likely to be fruitless. They’re more likely to get traffic tickets, too. They’re far more likely to be jailed. They stay in prison longer.
I would say the same about the police. They should be less tolerant of violence aimed at black people.
Hmm. I wonder if that rate of absence is in any way connected to the disproportionately high rates of arrest of incarceration and violence suffered by black men. Nah, probably not. I bet it’s all because of baggy pants and hip hop music.
Yes, but if you get a gun you can kill people without using your head. And you are failing to understand how people assess risk. Experience is a part of it and facts might even be a part of it, but the larger cultural context is huge.
So obviously you agree that the cops pulling over the black guys in suits more than the white guys in suits are not using their heads? Do you agree that this is a serious and major problem in our society, and in police culture?
I think it is a problem. I don’t know if it is a major problem. It would be interesting to see what the numbers would if one could control for economic status cues, neighborhood, etc.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying the cops wouldn’t be using their heads. As long as black men exhibit a strikingly more violence than whites, some greeter suspicion is understandable. But even so, my point is that 1) among blacks, by changing the signals sent to cops via things like dress they can largely eliminate an increased level of suspicion/fear. And 2) for everyone, there are cues that might indicate risk. One of them, unfortunately is skin color. Others, like dress, can be more important. So, for instance, I would expect the black guy in the suit and tie in the Volvo has a lower likelihood of being stopped and detained than a white guy in the rap garb and black SUV I mentioned earlier.
You’re now demanding I prove stuff I didn’t bring up in the first place. I am having trouble seeing this as a legitimate request for a cite.
No, they can’t. Think about it: do you think the police started mistreating black people when “rapper-type t-shirt, gold chains and gold teeth” were invented?
I think such disparate treatment, in which skin color is actually part of the cop’s decision-making (whether the cop is black or white), actually makes society worse. If a kid of any race sees his father mistreated (or just treated differently) again and again by the police just because of his skin color, that kid is X% more likely to do something bad someday against the police. So if black kids are more likely to see their fathers treated this way, then black kids are X% more likely to do something bad against the police because of the way the police acted. I don’t know the value of X here, but I don’t think it can be denied that this factor would exist if such treatment exists.
And when they try to do that, through programs like stop and frisk, the liberals like you get their panties in a wad. Even while many of the law abiding people who live in the neighborhoods favor the program.
Actually, it more related to Welfare and how it was instituted back in the early '60s. How odd that you don’t know that.
Huh? Sounds like you’re agreeing with me.
Are we sure the police aren’t shooting them and dumping their bodies in pools?
This makes me think of a question. magellan01 – if you think racism in police culture is not a major problem in our society, when do you think it ceased to be a major problem? Was it still a major problem in 1920? In 1960? 1980? Did it stop being a problem before or after hip-hop style clothing and accessories became popular?
I agree with this completely. The sad thing is that we have one group what is, factually WAY more violent than another. Asking a human being to ignore that seems like a stretch. I think people want a more color-neutral world, but when such a blatant disparity exists, it’s hard to ignore it.
I think where our think diverges is that you seem to think it is possible to ask people who put their lives on the line to ignore the fact that one threat is substantially higher than another threat. Not only do I think it is probably not possible, I don’t think it’s wise. We need to acknowledge the threats as they are, not as we wish they would be.
Again, using the dog analogy (and no, Marley, I’m not equating black people with animals :rolleyes:), would you agree that a pit bull type dog would reasonably be viewed as a greater risk than a golden retriever? There is a pit bull living down the hall from me. It’s one of the sweetest dogs I’ve ever met. Bu the first few times I got in the elevator with it I was much more nervous than I’ve ever been around a golden. Was my apprehension reasonable?
Actually, while it may be true that black youth commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime, it is also true that the police tend to base their stops disproportionately (and erroneously) on perceived race.
This was demonstrated during the analysis of New York City’s stop and frisk laws years ago and re-affirmed when the court finally evaluated more recent evidence and ordered New York to stop that racist behavior. Salon MONDAY, AUG 22, 2005 Why racial profiling doesn’t work
I already posted data showing that stop and frisk did very little except harass innocent people.
How odd that you didn’t post a cite or make a coherent argument for your statement. The idea of welfare = black people and welfare queens didn’t exist in the '60s. At the time the idea of Appalachian poverty (still real, still terrible) was a driving force. Still later we heard how welfare and other forms of assistance were actually bad for black people, which justified cuts that threw more people into poverty. For some reason that didn’t help black people or the black family very much. Anyway: yes, racial gaps in incarceration have a terrible effect on black families.
Then you didn’t understand it. I’m saying the police are more violent with black people because our culture sees black people as more violent, and as a result, the police are encouraged to act that way. It’s self-perpetuating and it has jack shit to do with anybody’s clothes.
Interesting question. I think a few things tend to bleed together, those few things being the blatant racism of the pre 1960s, the level of inner city crime of the 1970’s-1980s and the rap culture that followed it.
As I mentioned earlier, I think perhaps the largest factor is the break-up of the black family. I think that if whites suffered that as the black community did, and were living in similar situations—poor, densely populated urban areas—that effects would be similar. For me, this is the saddest part of the problem, because it’s something that is really, REALLY difficult to fix. And I really don’t think it can be fixed from the outside. I wish it could, but I fear it can’t. But I low that if I were part of that community, I wouldn’t want to wait and hope that someone else could fix it. I’d take more of a Bill Cosby attitude. But we know well his comments were accepted. It’s a fought one , to say the least.
Then you disagree with me, and iiandiiii, that a black guy in a Brooks Brothers suit and tie driving a Volvo is less apt to be stopped and detained than a black guy in a rapper-style t-shirt and gold chains and gold teeth. You’re welcome to live in your fantasy land.
So you’ve changed the subject away from any problems in policing and the inequities of the legal system, which are real and backed by data and have major effects on people’s lives. You do believe that black people should dress differently, and otherwise you’ve washed your hands of the entire problem. Thank you for a compelling demonstration of why these problems still exist in American society.
Not even close, no. Can you give me some idea what you’re struggling with? I explained myself and you are still coming nowhere near what I said. Here’s what I wrote about your Brooks Brothers example:
Do you know any black people? Do you talk to them? Do you have any rough conception of about how many people are driving around in rapper-style t-shirts and gold teeth, and roughly how many are dressing like, you know, people?
I’m not sure if you realize what a preposterously cartoonish view of the world you’re presenting here. It’s actually very straightforwardly racist.
Is there no basis for this whatsoever?
No, no racism. Police react differently under more dangerous circumstances. Do you blame them?
You have it backward. The stereotype existed before the black inner city did. Black people were impoverished, then ghettoized, then we started hearing about how dangerous they are. What you’re looking at is a justification for a stereotyped, not a reason for a behavior.
Is ‘being near a black person’ a circumstance? I don’t think it is.