Why Aren't Anti-Abortionists Revolting?

Interesting question. I suspect that the anti-abortion movement is not philosophically monolithic enough to give a single answer. Just to look at one of the more radical fringes with which I am somewhat familiar, the Christian Reconstructionists by and large reject the idea of armed rebellion against the state, on the grounds that this violates God’s law (see Romans 13:1). They therefore seek the gradual replacement of our secular legal system with a Blblical law order in which abortion (among many other things) would be punishable by death, applicable to both doctors who perform abortions and mothers who have them.

I don’t entirely trust the CR’s about that “gradual” and “non-violent” bit–they also have something called the “doctrine of the lesser magistrate”, which holds that citizens have a right to armed resistance if they are under the authority of a subordinate level of government; i.e., the duly constituted authorities of a state or even local government could lead a lawful resistance against the national government if the national government violates God’s laws.

There are a handful of Christian Reconstructionist lesser magistrates–city councilmen and state legislators and so forth–but so far none has sought to lead the Christian resistance against the evil baby-killing Leviathan federal government. In prudential terms, they’d get slaughtered and they no doubt know it–we’re talking about some selectman from suburban Cleveland teaming up with an Ohio state assemblyman to lead maybe a few dozen people against the armed forces of a superpower, with about zero support from the public at large.

Bear in mind that Nazi Germany didn’t really experience as much internal armed resistance as you might think; what armed resistance it did encounter was mainly in foreign countries overrun and occupied in war, not in Germany itself, where the Nazis had come to power by quasi-legitimate means; and Nazi Germany was at war with foreign enemies who actively sought to aid local resistance groups. The Recons know perfectly well that their situation is nothing like that of the Underground in World War II in that sense; i.e., no sense by the general populace that the government is an invading and occupying force, and no powerful external allies to provide aid and comfort (not to mention to eventually win the war by sheer military force–it’s not like France was actually liberated by the Underground).

Even if you buy the extreme right’s fantastic rhetoric about the evils of the U.S. government, the situation would be more analogous to the post-WWII Soviet Union, where armed resistance was largely nonexistant and opposition to the regime was confined mainly to peaceful dissidents.

What would I do if I felt the government was sanctioning murder (to try to make an analogy that might be somewhat realistic, let’s say the government is euthanizing the elderly)? I wouldn’t take up arms, especially if I was in the minority in thinking this was wrong - I don’t want to risk my life and the lives of my family for something that is not directly effecting me. I would without a doubt try to relocate to a country that did not do this, and tell everyone I thought would listen how barbaric I thought my former home was and why I left.

beagledave said:

I didn’t ask it of them because I didn’t realize they felt so strongly. Also, I really get annoyed when somebody posts a thread and people jump in to ask, “Why didn’t you also talk about THIS?” Just because we talk about one subject doesn’t mean we have to talk about every single related one. Just one of my pet peeves.

I’ve seen no evidence to link it to a political climate change. The only change in the political area I’ve seen has been a moderating of the anti-abortion politicians, in general. As I recall, even W. tried to moderate the GOP on this issue. Then again, it could have just been another one of his lies in order to get elected (along the lines of “I’ll reduce CO2 emissions”).

Well, I’ll withhold judgment until I see those stats – from an objective source, of course.

True. I guess I’m just trying to put myself in that situation (of a true pro-lifer who thinks mass murder is occurring) and thinking that I wouldn’t want to wait while the country may or may not come around.

OK. Thanks.

I have a follow-up question that occurred to me. (Not just for you, but for the other religious pro-lifers here.) How much does your religious belief in an afterlife affect your decision? In other words, if you believe that aborted babies go to Heaven, does this help soften the blow (so to speak)?

With a recognition that a lot of abortion polling is suspect (wording plays a HUGE role in the results)…there is a fairly good summary here

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates/lat_poll000618.htm

Good question…although I’m not sure how I would answer it ;)…My first thought is that I guess a belief in an afterlife affects my perspective on all deaths in general, not necessarily on death by abortion.

I was heading in to the movie “Enemy at the Gates” last night, and the marquee has the tagline “Sometimes a single bullet can change history.” The gentleman in front of me mentioned how a single bullet to Hitler could have changed an awful lot. This got me to thinking about your question, which has been on my mind for awhile. Would a bullet killing Hitler really have changed anything? Weren’t there plenty of others to take his place and further the same agenda?

I’ve been thinking about the question in the OP ever since I heard the idea that the German law contained allowances for cleansing of the population, this legal sanction of killing in some sense analogous to abortion laws. The Nazis weren’t doing anything illegal, just something morally repugnant. So if this a Holocaust going on, why wouldn’t we rise up and end it? Killing one doctor may not end it, but it may deter others from being willing to perform abortions. But I guess it does come down to the sanctity of all life. The death penalty is part of this, and is worked against through non-violent means, not by killing government officials.

I’m not sure that this is relevant. Life is a continuum from conception on and life on earth is meant to result in bringing about the kingdom. Yes, innocent babies go to heaven but they were created to take part in God’s kingdom on earth too. Their murder adds to the evil in the world and this is not eased by their entry into heaven…I know, witnessing, but you did ask a religious question. :slight_smile:

gigi wrote:

Well, yes, someone (Goebbels? Rommel?) would have stepped up to be the new Führer – and there would be so much back-stabbing and infighting over who would get to be King of the Hill that the country would’ve temporarily descended into chaos. And the psychological impact to the rest of the country upon having their “invincible leader” taken down would have been devastating. Had Hitler been assassinated during WW2, it would have ended the war much sooner. Had Hitler been assassinated before WW2, the war might not have even happened.

Not that I’m hijacking this thread or anything…

Yeah, but the Stalin would have started a war, what with his Tesla Coils and Mammoth Tanks… and the Allies would have had to rescue Einstein so he could construct a Chronosphere to save us…

[QUOTE} {B/}
I have a follow-up question that occurred to me. (Not just for you, but for the other religious pro-lifers here.) How much does your religious belief in an afterlife affect your decision? In other words, if you believe that aborted babies go to Heaven, does this help soften the blow (so to speak)?
**[/QUOTE]

Well if you go by strict Catholic doctrine, the baby was never baptized and therefore not washed of Original Sin. So the child’s soul would be damned. Now this view has softened much in recent years, as we cannot believe a compassionate God would actually condemn the unborn in such a way.

To answer your question, the fact that God takes mercy on those that are wronged is a comfort, but its a very small comfort in the face of the whole situation.

<hijack>
SPOOFE you play way to many video games.

I like you :slight_smile:

For the record, I don’t believe the allied powers had a response of the Russian Psychic weaponry.
</hijack>

No. Wrong. Persistence in mortal sin is required for damnation. This isn’t a recent teaching of the Catholic church as far as I know.

Verrain wrote:

It’s not just in recent years that condemning an unbaptized baby to Hell was considered too cruel a thing for God to do. In the Middle Ages, one popular notion was that of “Limbo” – a region between Heaven and Hell that all the unbaptized babies went to when they died. Limbo wasn’t a paradise by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn’t a region of agonizing torment, either. It was kind of like experiencing the Blahs for all eternity. Limbo was never officially condoned by the Catholic catechism, however; Dante replaced Limbo with the outermost circle of a 9-layered Hell in his Divine Comedy.

I believe the Roman Catholic Church officially denounced Limbo as a non-entity in Vatican II.

Hmm. Some thoughts.

AFAIR, Dante’s Paradiso puts the souls of small children up in Heaven, the baptised ones on one side of god and the unbaptised on the other. Also AFAIR, although Dante got some criticism for tinkering with official doctrine in some places, this wasn’t one of them. (In fact, the “Original Sin” notion is more likely to be talked up by the more extreme Protestant sects than the Catholics).

Dante’s Hell contains two areas for non-believers; the First Circle is sometimes referred to as Limbo, and it’s the place for otherwise virtuous non-believers, reasonably pleasant apart from lacking the positive bliss of God’s presence. Before the actual circles of Hell, though, is the Vestibule of the Futile, reserved for people who’ve never believed in anything and have led utterly pointless lives.

My own views? I’m opposed to the taking of human life, and I’m in favour of the broadest definition of “human life”. Not necessarily on religious grounds any more than self-interest grounds - say it’s OK to take human life, and somebody might think it’s OK to take mine; narrow the definition of human life, and it might get narrowed enough to exclude me. (Not entirely implausible, I’m sorry to say - I was, for example, out of work for about four years once, and I’m sure you wouldn’t have to look very far on the Internet to find someone in favour of euthanizing the unemployed). So, I am, as a matter of logical consistency, opposed to murder, warfare, famine, the death penalty, and, um, er, yes, abortion.

Having said that, though, I can get behind Persephone’s viewpoint - I’m not anxious to see abortion made illegal, I’d rather see it made unnecessary. That means, of course, that I’m strongly in favour of things like contraception and sex education (traditionally opposed by the more militant pro-lifers, but even I can’t broaden my definition of humanity to include individual sex cells). I’m also right behind the sorts of initiatives mentioned by beagledave in his post - let’s see the Church offering practical support, not castigation. (IIRC, there was something of a fuss made a few months back when the Catholic Church in Ireland offered financial support to a pregnant teenage girl if she went ahead with the pregnancy - they received some criticism, but I personally saw it as a heartening example of the Church putting its money where its mouth is. Perhaps not the best kind of social action, but definitely a step in the right direction.)

As to the “morality police” (commented upon by Hazel and SexyWriter): as a Christian, I believe that God made the pleasures of this world, and He means us to enjoy them. Now, I may think that overindulgence is a bad thing, but, again as a Christian, I am explicitly forbidden to make judgements about other people’s lifestyles (Matthew 7:1-4). So, as far as I and my religion are concerned, please feel free to shag around the clock, with whoever you like, whatever way you like. Just because I’m not getting any doesn’t mean I’m against it.

As to the OP: since I’m opposed to taking human life, violent revolution would seem to be out of the question. I suppose I and my massed legions could try to storm the Houses of Parliament and tickle the Government into submission, but, frankly, I can think of more productive uses for my time.

For the record, my mind is NEVER made up. I’m impressed with all the insights you guys have. Doesn’t mean I agree with them all, but I DO understand a little better.

If anyone is still interested, I thought this was relevent:

U.S. Court Tosses Major Anti-Abortion Verdict

Hazel said;

What about those people who are completely and utterly unworried about other peoples’ sex lives. Totally. Go for it. One night stands, orgies, outside marriage? It’s absolutely noone’s business. Nor, incidentally, would they ever condemn you for it. Might be envious, I s’pose. We have contraception.

But in the event of a pregnancy, do have a stance.

I guess the point I’m making is that it is wrong to assume that all anti-abortionists are ‘morality police’ in the sense you posit.

Beat me to it.

Beat me to it. :stuck_out_tongue:

What? You mean pro-life people don’t largely go out killing people because they want to save face? And here I thought it was because they valued human life.

As do I, though I remain pro-choice; unfortunately, I am male so it is little more than rhetoric for me to say so.

But then you’d be, forgive me for saying so, passing judgement. Just thought you might want to have logical consistency everywhere instead of just where it is convenient.

In a way I guess that my views make me pro-life. While I don’t believe that a fetus is a thinking, feeling human, I DO know that a fetus is a potential human being. That in it self makes me frown at abortion. In theory. There are some situations where I would condone abortion. I wont get into them in this thread because I don’t think that is what David B wanted to know.
I don’t see the minority of people having abortions as an act of mass murder. Saying that, I feel that if the goverment restricted child birth to say 2 children per family, and made them get abortions if they went over that, then yes, I think I would be revolting and not just typing on the SDMB.
While I feel that the act of abortion is inherently wrong, I realize that I am only human, and perhaps my judgement is in some way hindered by some minor brainwashing by society or in my education, I concur that my views on this subject are only opinion. While others may not see the same things as I, killing them would be foolish and to me an act of utter close-mindedness. Debates are much more civilized. :stuck_out_tongue:

And for the record, im not Anti-Gun, I am Anti-bullet. Buy all the guns you want. Guns dont kill people, bullets do. (Though I guess if you hit somebody over the head with a gun hard enough you could kill em)*

*Just a little humor folks, im not hijacking the thread :stuck_out_tongue:

Not so, i’faith. I can compel people to do my bidding without making any value judgements about their morality. Of course, it would be legitimate (for some) to question my morality in doing so…

::sigh:: <Turns to massed legions> Put the weapons down, lads, there’ll be no tickling today…

So is every sperm. You could use the same argument against masturbation and birth control.

[hijack]

I remember when I was little i had this dream where the youngest of the family(if they were able) had to kill the oldest, if they were past a certain age. (the gov’t said that they had outlived their usefulness) I had to push my great g’ma off a high cliff in a wheelchair. I was crying. the whole town was watching. traumatic…