Why aren't Military Ranks all the same?

[History_Geek]

@JRDelirious

@Chefguy

Usually in wartime. Also, I knew a man in the Navy by the name of Commodore Forte. He was the head of the Civil Engineering Corps (CEC) branch at the time, so never had a squadron of anything. However, he was the leader of 8-10 Seabee battalions.

Same idea: he commanded a group of multiple units. Perhaps a majority of Western navies (save notably for Britain & the Commonwealth nations) by the early 20th Century adopted a scale where ranks skip directly from Captain to Rear Admiral, with Commodore being the job described above. The US adopted such a system in 1899.

Under that scheme in USN you went from Captain to 2-star Rear Admiral, but those RADMs who were below the median seniority of the group - literally, the lower half or the RADMs - were paid at the rate for 1-star brigadier generals of the land services. All still wore the 2 stars, or a wide band of braid + 1 regular braid on the cuffs.

The US briefly revived Commodore as a distinct operational rank during WW2, giving it the 1-star (or a single wide band of braid on the cuff) insignia, then upon shrinking post-war reverted to the system of lower and upper half of Rear Admirals (no idea if the differentiation by seniority remained or if at some point between 1948 and 1981 the move from lower to upper half became an actual promotion, anyone know?)

During the first Reagan administration they again revived it as “Commodore Admiral” a proper permanent O7 rank, wearing the WW2 Commodore insignia and from which it took an actual promotion to make RADM. Apparently this was less than buoyantly received, and by early in Ron’s second term the decision was made to instead bring back the term “Rear Admiral(LH)” for that rank and grade, wearing the O7 insignia, and from which an actual promotion is required to move on to (UH).

Cheers to all for filling me in on the Commodores. And double to JRDelirious for answering my follow-up: “The lower half of WHAT?”

[Raguleader]

@AirFarce1

Not to disappoint, they changed it since then. Now, Buck Sgt has gone away; AB,
A1C, SrA. When someone makes E-5, they are a Staff Sergeant, stars are all colored now (white or blue, depending on uniform). We change uniforms and ranks WAAAYYY too often.

What I’m vaguely curious about, is the following situation: You have three E-4s milling about, a Specialist, a Senior Airman, and a Corporal. Is the Corporal in charge by merit of him being the only NCO there? What if the Senior Airman has been to Airman Leadership School, and thus is qualified to be a Supervisor? (In the past, graduating ALS would have made the Senior Airman a Buck Sergeant, now he gets the authority, but not the NCO-ship nor the need to sew on new stripes just yet until he successfully pins on Staff Sergeant)

As far as First Sergeant goes in the Air Force, that gets fun too. A First Sergeant can be a Master Sergeant, Senior Master Sergeant, or a Chief Master Sergeant. Hell, for very short periods of time, he can be a Tech Sergeant, but that’s mostly only if the Master Sergeants are all sick or out golfing that week. It’s an admin/advisory type position. The way it was explained to me was that a First Sergeant is a professionally-trained “People Person”, responsible for issuing general guidance to the units’ enlisted men as a whole, and representing their interests to the Unit Commander.

You can address a First Sergeant either by his rank “Master Sergeant Norris”, his title “First Sergeant Norris”, or you could call him “Shirt” (Why do we call the First Sergeant “Shirt”? I haven’t a freaking clue. Tradition.)

As for standardizing all of the ranks: We’d LOVE for everybody to standardize the US military ranks together, just as soon as we can convince the other branches that our ranks are better! First, we’d have to figure out what we want our ranks to be for fifteen minutes straight…

[Monty]

@Raguleader

What I’m vaguely curious about, is the following situation: You have three E-4s milling about, a Specialist, a Senior Airman, and a Corporal. Is the Corporal in charge by merit of him being the only NCO there?

Nope. As I recall it, seniority across services is based on time in paygrade.

[AK84]

Out of curisoity are former Commodores referred to as that after their tenure is up? So lets say an officer commanding say a squadron of frigates who has the rank of Captain is called “Commodore”. When he gets sent to headquaters will he still be Commodore?

[Alessan]

@Raguleader

What I’m vaguely curious about, is the following situation: You have three E-4s milling about, a Specialist, a Senior Airman, and a Corporal. Is the Corporal in charge by merit of him being the only NCO there? What if the Senior Airman has been to Airman Leadership School, and thus is qualified to be a Supervisor? (In the past, graduating ALS would have made the Senior Airman a Buck Sergeant, now he gets the authority, but not the NCO-ship nor the need to sew on new stripes just yet until he successfully pins on Staff Sergeant)

[/SIZE]

If they’re just milling about, why does someone have to be in charge?

[hajario]

A friend of mine is an Air Force officer who served on a base with a strange situation. It was a small base so it was run by a Colonel. There was a General on base too. He was in charge of a command that and a presence on every base in the world and included way more people in total than were on the little base where he resided. It just so happened to be headquartered on the little base. When it came to base operational stuff, the Colonel was in charge. He wasn’t in that General’s chain of command.

[Alessan]

That seems like a perfectly normal situation. Why should the General waste his time running a base? That’s not his job.

[hajario]

@Alessan

That seems like a perfectly normal situation. Why should the General waste his time running a base? That’s not his job.

The point is that the General couldn’t order the Colonel to do something related to the base even though he outranks him. That might seem odd to someone without military experience.

[Camus]

@hajario

The point is that the General couldn’t order the Colonel to do something related to the base even though he outranks him. That might seem odd to someone without military experience.

My last post had just such a situation. A colonel was the garrison commander commanding several hundred soldiers and civilian employees while a 2-star commanded a de facto headquarters unit that was barely over a hundred soldiers strong in total. They both have completely separate areas of responsibility and authority.

[Raguleader]

@Alessan

@Raguleader

What I’m vaguely curious about, is the following situation: You have three E-4s milling about, a Specialist, a Senior Airman, and a Corporal. Is the Corporal in charge by merit of him being the only NCO there? What if the Senior Airman has been to Airman Leadership School, and thus is qualified to be a Supervisor? (In the past, graduating ALS would have made the Senior Airman a Buck Sergeant, now he gets the authority, but not the NCO-ship nor the need to sew on new stripes just yet until he successfully pins on Staff Sergeant)

[/SIZE]

If they’re just milling about, why does someone have to be in charge?

Well, figure someone has to be in charge if there is the need to do something. Given the relative paygrades, it’d probably just be whoever decided to take charge first, assuming the other two didn’t think it was a huge tool to begin with (Tragically, many Senior Airmen have the hard-earned reputation of being power-hungry blowhards. I don’t have that problem of course, being a natural born leader in the spirit of Spaatz and Arnold. With a bit of Patton and Rommel thrown in for flavor. Also, I’m handsome and modest.)

[Zakalwe]

[quote=“Snnipe_70E, post:47, topic:551549”]

@Monty

Not so unusual. Take, for example, a Carrier Battle Group of the late 1980s. You could have the following folks, all of the rank of Captain:

[ul][li]Ship’s Company Commanding Officer.[/li][li]Carrier Air Wing Commanding Officer.[/li][li]Chief Engineer.[/li][li]Battle Group Commander.[/li][li]Various other embarked command’s commanding officers.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE]

When my son was on the connie the senior medical officer (SMO) was a captian. and I believe he also told me the XO was also a captian.

Ditto for me in '89. Out carrier had a Commanding Officer, XO (new frocked - went on to be Air Boss on a nuke), ChEng (new frocked), Air Boss (not new frocked - went on to command his own carrier while I was there), and Chief Medical Officer who were all O-6.

IIRC, the Air Boss is almost always a Captain since during flight operations he is in tactical command (ie, he tells the bridge where to go and how fast and such), but I never spent much time in PriFly and don’t know how true this is.

[Bearflag70]

So if Admiral Locke is on board the Enterprise, what are the limits, if any, on his power over Capt Picard and the ship?

[hajario]

@Bearflag70

So if Admiral Locke is on board the Enterprise, what are the limits, if any, on his power over Capt Picard and the ship?

Does Picard report directly to Locke or is Picard’s ship just transporting him somewhere?

[Bearflag70]

@hajario

@Bearflag70

So if Admiral Locke is on board the Enterprise, what are the limits, if any, on his power over Capt Picard and the ship?

Does Picard report directly to Locke or is Picard’s ship just transporting him somewhere?

Locke has orders from Starfleet to take the Enterprise into hostile territory to locate a Secret Thing. First Officer Riker knows what the Secret Thing is, but is ordered by the Admiral to keep it secret and to help with the mission. Picard doesn’t know what it is.

So, they take the Enterprise out there and put the ship in harm’s way looking for this Thing. All Picard knows is that his ship is in danger. He tells Riker in confidence that he will trust him, but if he finds that trust is misplaced, he will be forced to reconsider the command structure of the ship.

Can Picard order Riker to spill the beans? If Picard strips Riker of his command and throws him in the brig, can the Admiral trump Picard? Can he make Riker the Captain and throw Picard in the brig?

[hajario]

@Bearflag70

@hajario

Does Picard report directly to Locke or is Picard’s ship just transporting him somewhere?

Locke has orders from Starfleet to take the Enterprise into hostile territory to locate a Secret Thing. First Officer Riker knows what the Secret Thing is, but is ordered by the Admiral to keep it secret and to help with the mission. Picard doesn’t know what it is.

Someone with actual military experience should be along shortly but I can’t imagine that such a situation being legal…in the present day at any rate.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Starfleet is not a military organization, naval rank organization notwithstanding, so military custom would not necessarily apply.

[Bearflag70]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Starfleet is not a military organization, naval rank organization notwithstanding, so military custom would not necessarily apply.

I know… just pretend Navy rules apply.

[Acsenray]

Picard must have orders in this case. If his orders are tp do what the admiral tells him to do then they supersede his concern for his ship.

[Snnipe_70E]

@History_Geek

Is the rank of “commodore” ever officially used any more?

Have a classmate who was promoted to the rank of Commodore in the USMS several years ago.

[Bearflag70]

@acsenray

Picard must have orders in this case. If his orders are tp do what the admiral tells him to do then they supersede his concern for his ship.

Picard followed the Admiral’s orders “under protest.” So I assume Picard had no choice and the orders were proper. I was more curious about Picard’s little power play regarding Riker’s command.