Why Aren't People Working? (Personal anecdotes only)

[Dangerosa]

Way off topic, but it would probably benefit us as a nation to have a better scheme of getting these people employed in jobs that would accept their issues rather than handing them SSDI checks as a first step. Right now, they have little chance of getting employed through normal channels, little chance of keeping a job they get through normal channels. Corporations don’t want to deal with the ADHD brain of someone whose brain only works when the topic interests them or someone. Heck corporations don’t want to train someone in Salesforce, they only want you to apply if you have three years of Salesforce experience even though training someone in Salesforce isn’t that hard.

Corporations have be abdicating responsibility to do anything to ensure that they have a competent workforce to pull from since they decided you don’t need to be trained on the latest version of Excel, you can look it up on YouTube.

[Dinsdale]

@Spice_Weasel

Does that mean you work in the appeals sort of process? Like if someone is turned down, they can appeal to you? If so, you must be seeing a lot of borderline cases.

Yeah - exactly. I’m the 3d level of review. If they are clearly disabled, they’ve been paid below. If they are clearly not disabled, many don’t appeal.

@Spice_Weasel

How do you know about their social life? Is that something that is typically reported in medical files?

Psych evals and counseling records generally describe social activities, friends, volunteering, activities of daily living. And medical records often report when someone is traveling of coming back from a trip. Plus they complete forms which contain some info. Especially with school age kids, there is a lot of mention as to whether they have friends at school/home and how they get along with others. And if they turn up pregnant, you can guess they socialized with at lest one person at least once. (Often curious the lengths they go to to explain how they just met the guy one time when their sibling brought them over. And many of them have no money and can’t tolerate stores, but friends/family are happy to give them $ and people bring smokes/booze/weed to their home!)

[Dinsdale]

@echoreply

Things they want to do are lots easier than things they don’t want to do. Some things they want to do are still extremely difficult, and some things they don’t want to do may be impossible right now.

Well, maybe. Isn’t it tougher for EVERYONE to do things they don’t want to do? You know your situation. But there is a difference between impossible and really hard or unpleasant. Yeah, there are some things impaired people CANNOT do. But with SOME impaired people, I believe they can learn that there are just some things they HAVE to do - whether they want to or not. (Every situation is different. My ASD kid is a very independent married rocket scientist. There were PLENTY of things he didn’t want to do… Still doesn’t.)

@Dangerosa

Way off topic, but it would probably benefit us as a nation to have a better scheme of getting these people employed in jobs that would accept their issues rather than handing them SSDI checks as a first step.

Certainly. But doing something worthwhile costs more than just cutting checks. Gee - is it entirely a coincidence that applications for disability skyrocketed after Clinton “ended welfare”? But don’t ask me - I’m the misanthrope!

[Maserschmidt]

@Dangerosa

That could be “fuck it, I can retire.” It could also be reflective of getting let go at 50+ and then trying to find another job is an uphill battle.

Just so I understand your point, you’re saying they retire because they know it will be difficult to land a job because of age? You’d think with the increase in open jobs they would have better chances than historically, but I can see how that perspective is likely.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Dinsdale

Certainly. But doing something worthwhile costs more than just cutting checks. Gee - is it entirely a coincidence that applications for disability skyrocketed after Clinton “ended welfare”? But don’t ask me - I’m the misanthrope!

But isn’t that what we would expect? Certainly a lot of disabled people would be enrolling for welfare benefits because it was easier than going through the hassle of proving a disability. Then, when that was no longer an option, they applied for disability. (That welfare put my Mom through engineering school as a single parent, btw. And yes she eventually left her engineering work to run a small business and then we were poor again… it’s a long story…)

[DrDeth]

@Ruken

It doesn’t include the ~5.5M who BLS noted as wanting a job but who don’t meet the criteria for being in the labor force.

Cite?

@Sam_Stone

Also, the unemployment numbers are driven down by massive government hiring and expenditure. In the private sector, things aren’t going as well. This is especially true in Canada, which is becoming a bifurcated country.

FYI, Canada is not part of the USA.

And in the USA, there hasnt been “massive government hiring”.

@Dinsdale

Gee - is it entirely a coincidence that applications for disability skyrocketed after Clinton “ended welfare”?

Unfit for Work: The startling rise of disability in America

This cite shows no such “skyrocket” increase after 1996, in fact there’s a downward trend then. To be fair, there has been an upward trend in # of people on disability since welfare ended. But that upward trend started a decade earlier.

That cite does show something interesting- other than Maine- the nine states with the highest Disability rates are all Red states.

California- one of the bluest states - is one of the lowest. To be fair, so is Utah.

@Maserschmidt

Just so I understand your point, you’re saying they retire because they know it will be difficult to land a job because of age?

That is true. I am highly qualified (in a tiny niche, to be sure), but as i got older, job offers went slowly away. Now I consider myself 'semi-retired" in that i get an occasional short term consulting job, but no one wants to hire anyone my age FT.

[Kimstu]

@Dinsdale

A typical claimant will drive, attend community college (with accommodations), and even work part-time (keeping earnings below the level that would preclude benefits.)

That’s the part of the rules that kinda drives me crazy. I’m fortunate enough (so far) never to have had to seek any kind of disability benefits in 40+ years of working life, but I know quite a few people who have. And for all of them in the US system, if they were getting benefits long-term, they were quite frustrated at not being able to improve their standard of living by doing some (or some more) paying work, but terrified of the prospect of getting cut off from benefits because they were earning “too much”.

ISTM that making benefits a binary decision—either you’re disabled and entitled to benefits and must not earn more than a small additional amount, or you’re not disabled and no bennies for you—is just plain stupid. How about this instead? Once somebody actually qualifies for disability benefits, if they start earning on the side, let them keep their eligibility but just cut the amount of their benefits on a sliding scale.

As in, the disabled person gets $x per week in benefits, and is allowed to earn up to $y per week in addition, free and clear. Fine. But then if they get more healthy and/or more motivated to earn more, let them earn ANY amount, say $z per week, and just reduce their benefits by, say, $(z-y)/3 per week.

So, each week they’re initially getting their benefits amount $x, they’re earning their full extra-income allowance $y, and they’re even earning some additional income $(z-y). And their benefits amount is being cut by no more than one-third of that additional income amount. So they are still being strongly incentivized to keep earning, because they’re still gaining from earnings way more than they’re losing from benefit cuts.

That way, they won’t lose their benefits entirely until and unless their additional income $(z-y) reaches three times the benefit amount $x. At which point I think it’s fair to decide that they don’t really need the benefit anymore.

Make it worth their while to earn however much income they can or want to even while they’re still on disability, and they won’t be just passively shunning employment for fear of not being able to earn enough to forgo their benefits.

[Sam_Stone]

It can be difficult. I’m retired. One thing I found out from friends looking for work is that employers are being crazy strict about seeing transcripts, references from previous jobs, etc. I haven’t had to pull a transcript in 30 years, and my previous employer won’t give references - all you can do is provide an HR number to get title, length of employment, and final salary. Also, a lot of people are being offered jobs lower in status and pay than the job they retired from.

And finally, lots of older workers just aren’t happy with the changes to the work place and the attitudes of some younger workers. A lot of people were probably thinking about retiring, and then when Covid lockdowns came along it gave them the excuse to pull the trigger and do it.

[Dangerosa]

I think they spent time looking for jobs, and found that getting a job in your 50s is hard. Some of them are probably still looking, or underemployed. And some of them have given up. A friend has spent two years substitute teaching while looking for a job. Another - a HIGHLY qualified project manager with a great resume, spent six months looking for contract work before landing something. I watched my husband’s firm - which BADLY needs people, reject three great people he referred to them and those positions are still open six months later - they are CRYING to get those roles filled. All three people were qualified, but older.

And yeah, they should have a better choice with more open jobs than historically, but discrimination runs deep and hiring managers become convinced that they can find someone more qualified, whiter, younger, older, more penis bearing, a better cultural fit, a unicorn with a silver sparkly horn rather than the one with the gold sparkly horn that interviewed, if they just hold out a bit longer.

[crowmanyclouds]

@Sam_Stone

I’m retired.

You mean you’re unemployed correct?

@Sam_Stone

Also not included in the unemployment figures are the recently retired

[Kimstu]

@Sam_Stone

And finally, lots of older workers just aren’t happy with the changes to the work place and the attitudes of some younger workers.

Of course, that cuts both ways: some of the older workers are serious-minded professionals fed up with the lackadaisical frivolity of the youth, and some are nasty old fossils who are miffed that they can no longer get away with telling their racist jokes around the coffee machine and patting young female colleagues on the bum.

I don’t venture to speculate what percentage of the disaffected recent retirees fall into each category, but I’ve certainly seen and heard of a few departures of nasty old fossils that I’ve hailed with relief.

@Sam_Stone

Also, a lot of people are being offered jobs lower in status and pay than the job they retired from.

Well, that part actually makes sense to me, if they’ve been out of the workforce for a while. When you’re actively in the workforce you expect to trade up when switching jobs (although even then, you may have to descend a step or so if you’re moving into a different specialty, or a new skillset that you don’t yet have has recently gained importance in your field, or whatever).

But after you’ve retired, and especially if you’ve been retired for a little while… well, you probably wouldn’t reset all the way back to entry-level status, but ISTM it’s not unreasonable if you’re initially perceived as probably somewhat past your prime and not worth what you used to be.

[crowmanyclouds]

@Sam_Stone

lots of older workers just aren’t happy with the changes to the work place and the attitudes of some younger workers.

You can just say woke.

[Kimstu]

Hee hee: as I noted above, old folks being sulky about the “woke” can be interpreted One of Two Ways.

[crowmanyclouds]

Between the woke and the proliferation of Jedis in the workplace what are old folks going to do but be sulky?

[Spice_Weasel]

I perceive such generational conflict. Being an older Millennial that cranky Boomers tend to like, I hear them bitch about Millennials a lot. The thing is, I don’t perceive the people they are bitching about to be that bad. We had a wonderful lady in an executive position here, thirty years of tenure, I just loved her, but she was so miserable by the time she left and I think she blamed a lot of it on the attitudes of young people, but she didn’t seem to recognize that she was expecting career levels of dedication from low-wage workers doing incredibly difficult, stressful work. And maybe my older colleague went through all of that as a young woman and stuck it out and rose to the top, and just hates that young people are less willing to do that now (though she fails to understand that people even in crap jobs thirty years ago made more money than they do now, adjusted for inflation.) I admit we Millennials are more likely to exit a shit situation at work than try to get it sorted. That said, we weren’t really fucked until all the Boomers left, taking their expertise with them, because they didn’t like the new CEO. (And all the Millennials stayed, and got promoted, and had to figure out what the fuck to do.)

[Ruken]

@DrDeth

Cite?

I recommend that anyone who thinks they have something to contribute about any of the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics’ six unemployment rates hie to BLS dot gov to make sure they understand how those rates and levels are defined and counted.

FWIW all those measures are low by historical standards. As is non-participation for the more relevant demographics, as already mentioned.

[Dinsdale]

@DrDeth

This cite shows no such “skyrocket” increase after 1996, in fact there’s a downward trend then. To be fair, there has been an upward trend in # of people on disability since welfare ended. But that upward trend started a decade earlier.

Not sure if I’m reading that chart wrong, but it sure looks like the slope steepened dramatically in 98-99 or so. I’ll acknowledge that I overstated the direct relation between end of welfare and increased claims. And, yes, it is pretty clear that disability applications mirror unemployment.

@DrDeth

That cite does show something interesting- other than Maine- the nine states with the highest Disability rates are all Red states.

Yeah. One factor of those freedom-loving government-haters pulling in more $ from the feds than they pay. I guess I’m not smart enough to figure that.

@Kimstu

let them keep their eligibility but just cut the amount of their benefits on a sliding scale.

Yeah, maybe that would make sense, but I’d wager it would be complicated as all hell to monitor. But realize SS disability has very little to do with whether or not an individual is “disabled” - however you or I might define that term. Instead, it is merely a process of jamming people into various pigeonholes in a complicated administrative framework. And the extent to which the benefit payments will change an individual’s life or improve their chances to rejoin the workforce is pretty much irrelevant. You fit into the right pigeonhole - you win. You fall one box over - sorry Charlie!

[Ruken]

@Maserschmidt

It’s pretty clear that at the pandemic, a bunch of people over 55 said “fuck it, time to retire”. It’s pretty striking when you look at the graph for 10 years.

The back of my envelope say this difference works out to about 2M people. Which actually could cancel out enough job openings to get us back to 2019 levels of openings. Of course, that 55+ pool includes boomers that have only gotten 4 years older, so it’s not a compositionally consistent comparison.

[Kimstu]

@Spice_Weasel

I perceive such generational conflict. Being an older Millennial that cranky Boomers tend to like, I hear them bitch about Millennials a lot. The thing is, I don’t perceive the people they are bitching about to be that bad.

I haz a theory about “the woke” and the current hot trends for “inclusiveness” and “intersectionality” and so forth. IMHO it’s kind of a modern incarnation of the “moral uplift” transformations of the Victorian era.

Pre-Victorian and Victorian earnestness about moral uplift achieved a HUGE amount of social improvement in Britain, from banning slavery to reforming child labor and animal cruelty practices and a whole host of other social ills. And a lot of reformers got carried away by the power of ethical change, and made their worldview of “practical Christianity” and “moral improvement” a sort of one-size-fits-all creed that was often applied with more good intentions than good judgement. [/hijack]

[Maserschmidt]

@Dangerosa

I think they spent time looking for jobs, and found that getting a job in your 50s is hard. Some of them are probably still looking, or underemployed.

To clarify the metric, that labor force participation does include people looking. But it definitely doesn’t distinguish between underemployed and regularly employed.