Why aren't pro-lifers killing abortionists?

[villa]

@kanicbird

What if that person was your child?

I don’t see the identity of the person as being relevant to whether it is murder or not in that situation.

[Weston]

@villa

If I wake up one morning and find you grinning up at me, having plugged yourself into my kidneys as a living dialysis machine, I am not sure I would consider it murder if I unplugged you, even if I knew that action would cause your death. And it is pretty certain that you are a human being.

I still am not sure that I would consider it murder even if I had voluntarily taken an action earlier that I knew carried a certain risk that I would wake up the following morning with a person plugged into my kidneys.

But you’re not pro-life. If you were pro-life you would probably respond that if you’d done something to be iun that position then you’d have a responsibility to keep me alive and if you disconneted me that would be murder. I don’t think that because I’m pro-choice but thats probably what they’d say.

If you were a strong pro-lifer, would you think abortion is murder?

[Laudenum]

I think you have to understand that most pro-lifers don’t actually believe that the baby is equal in importance to the mother.

Most believe that the baby is a potential life, and has human worth immediately.
This is why many pro-lifers will oppose abortion ‘on tap’, but will be willing to allow an abortion if the mothers life is threatened.
The baby’s/foeti’s???/blasto-whotsit right to life overrides the mothers right to ‘convenience’ but not her right to life.
Therefore an abortion doctor while a truly evil man, has a greater right to life then the babies he is killing.
Thats my understanding anyway.

On the other hand, if you ask Des Trihs, I’m sure he will tell you it’s because they keep trying and missing.

[Weston]

@kanicbird

What if that person was your child?

You seem to be the only pro-lifer in this thread. May I ask, if you think abortion is murder then why aren’t you killing abortionists?

[villa]

@Weston

But you’re not pro-life. If you were pro-life you would probably respond that if you’d done something to be iun that position then you’d have a responsibility to keep me alive and if you disconneted me that would be murder. I don’t think that because I’m pro-choice but thats probably what they’d say.

If you were a strong pro-lifer, would you think abortion is murder?

I try not to presume with certainty that I can tell what other people think. Your argument is based on a logical error. It is not a requirement for a pro lifer to think that abortion is murder. It is possible to think of it as a morally regrettable decision, or to think that it is something that should not be legally permitted, without thinking it to be murder.

And once you realize your first statement is logically flawed, the rest of the argument, requiring all pro lifers to be gun and bomb toting vigilantes to be consistent in your eyes, also falls.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Why don’t people who demand answers to questions like this start 500 threads a day? It’s not like there’s great effort involved, and if the issues are that important, don’t their beliefs (if they are sincere) demand they take it to a ridiculous extreme? If not, why not?

[kanicbird]

@Weston

You seem to be the only pro-lifer in this thread. May I ask, if you think abortion is murder then why aren’t you killing abortionists?

Read post # 12

[kanicbird]

@villa

I don’t see the identity of the person as being relevant to whether it is murder or not in that situation.

If it’s actually murder or not, yes, but the ability to commit that murder could depend on if it is your own child or a unidentifiable person.

[Rune]

Why don’t people opposed to the genocide in Dafur take up arms against Sudanese troops? Why don’t people opposed to female genital mutilation kill fgm cutters? Why don’t people opposed to the death penalty, kill prison wardens? Why don’t people who think global warming will kill millions of people shoot SUV drivers?

@Weston

If they’re scared of jail I would accuse them of not having the courage of their convictions.

Is that supposed to be bad?

@Weston

In my (pro-choice) opinion, those prolifers who blowed up abortion clinics & killed doctors were evil but at least they were being consistent with their beleifs.

Personally I consider inconsistency to be an important human – and very humanely - trait.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

The pro-life movement constantly uses the word “murder,” so I don’t think that’s a false representation.

I’ve asked the OP’s question more than once. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a really clear answer except that they think it would ultimately be counter-productive in their longer-term strategic goals.

Even if they don’t think it would work as a strategy, I think it’s still fair to ask whether they think it would be immoral.

Two scenarios:

A. You have a gun and you see somebody raising a knife about to stab and kill a toddler. Is it morally permissable to kill the stabber to save the toddler?

B. You have a gun and you see a doctor about to perform an intact dilation and extraction procedure ( a so-called “partial-birth abortion”) on a woman who is 4 month pregnant. Would it be immoral to kill the doctor to stop the abortion and save the fetus? I’m not asking if it would be a good political strategy, or if you would do it, just if it would be immoral. If you really think the fetus has the same human rights as the toddler, then what’s the moral difference between shooting a person who’s trying to kill either one of them?

I think that, whether they admit or not, most lifers don’t really believe that a fetus is the same as a born baby.

[villa]

@kanicbird

If it’s actually murder or not, yes, but the ability to commit that murder could depend on if it is your own child or a unidentifiable person.

Well the question was whether it was murder or not. Hence me answering that question. My apologies for not peering into your mind to determine what question you thought I should be answering.

Of course it would alter whether I could do it. But it wouldn’t be commiting murder either way.

[Weston]

@villa

Your argument is based on a logical error. It is not a requirement for a pro lifer to think that abortion is murder. It is possible to think of it as a morally regrettable decision, or to think that it is something that should not be legally permitted, without thinking it to be murder.

I’m sorry but I don’t follow. Those pro-lifers who genuinely beleive an embryo is the equivalant of aborn human are forced by their own premises to conclude that abortion is murder. They have no logical basis for considering it to be anuthing else. You can conceive of situations were abortion wouldn’t be murder and would instead just be regrettable but thats because youre not pro-life. Pro-lifers who think embryo’s are as important as people do not share your premises and cannot logically reach the same conclusion. I’d be surprised if there are any pro-lifers anywhere who think embryo’s are human beings who dont think abortion is murder.

But anyway, this is all a completely moot point. Its no secret thhat there are millions of pro-lifers who do consider abortion to be murder (or at least they say they do). They’re very vocal about it. Just type “Abortion is murder” into Google and you’ll find thousands of web pages and opinion columns arguing this very thing. Why arent those people killing abortion doctors?

[Acid_Lamp]

To the OP: Because in America at least, the climate is too peaceful and the rule of law too thorough and valued to take up vigilante practice. Like it or not, they will be found, incarcerated, and depending on the state, probably executed. Beyond that, many fear direct retaliation from the targets. I know that that if I worked in such a hostile environment, I would go armed. I suspect more doctors and clinic staff do likewise than you might think. Lastly, they know that murder is wrong, and don’t want to lower themselves to the level of the people they are protesting against. Few of them really believe that there is an active campaign of destruction going on. It would make more logical sense to kill the mothers, than the doctors.

[gonzomax]

If you are pro life then killing is wrong. Therefore they would never do such things to be consistent.

[Lust4Life]

@Weston

If you’re a pro-lifer and you believe that human beings are created at conception, you must conclude that abortion is murder.

If you believe this you must also accept that there is a veritable holocaust of unborn children occurring right under your nose, funded by your tax money.

It stands to reason that if pro-lifers were killing abortionists or blowing up their clinics, people would stop becoming abortionists. It also stands to reason that if nobody wanted to be abortionists, then the number of abortions performed annually would decrease considerably.

So why aren’t pro-lifers killing abortionists?

Are you suggesting they should ?

I was under the impression that some of the so called Pro Lifers already had murdered Doctors etc.which is why I find their self chosen title as pure hypocrisy.

[BlinkingDuck]

I am defacto pro-choice.

I do think abortion is wrong…and could even be murder.

However, I don’t KNOW that it is and wouldn’t be so arrogant as to assume that I am 100% correct.

Therefore, I have to defer to the consensus…and so am defacto pro-choice.

[matt_mcl]

Sometimes they are. From Wikipedia:

* March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of the year before. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.
* June 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside of another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings, received a death sentence, and was executed September 3, 2003.
* December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi, who prior to his arrest was distributing pamphlets from Human Life International, was arrested and confessed to the killings. He committed suicide in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
* January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
* October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.The attempted murders were:

* August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence.
* June 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
* December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the same-day shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
* December 18, 1996: Dr. Calvin Jackson of New Orleans, Louisiana was stabbed 15 times, losing 4 pints of blood. Donald Cooper was charged with second-degree attempted murder and sentenced to 20 years.
* October 28, 1997: A physician whose name has not been revealed was shot in his home in Rochester, New York.
* January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.
* November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare on December 3, 2003.
* December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."
* October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.
* May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire on resulted in damage estimated at US$20,000.
* September 30, 2000: A Catholic priest drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being shot at by a security guard.
* June 11, 2001: A bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington on destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages
* July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson.
* December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year.
* September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinc.
* April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device.
* May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
* December 6, 2007: Two unidentified persons set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
* January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.

* November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.
* November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.
* November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.
* July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unindentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
* February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.
* May 18, 1992: A Toronto, Ontario clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.

* July 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the face and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.
* January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a political (and thus terroristic) reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[Laudenum]

@BlinkingDuck

Therefore, I have to defer to the consensus…and so am defacto pro-choice.

What consensus?

[Weston]

@Lust4Life

Are you suggesting they should ?

I was under the impression that some of the so called Pro Lifers already had murdered Doctors etc.which is why I find their self chosen title as pure hypocrisy.

I’m arguing that it would be immoral not to kill abrtionists if u believe abortion is murder. Pro-lifers say that abortion is murder but very rarely do any ofthem attack abortionists. i therefore conclude that the vast majority of pro-lifers do not really beleive what they say they believe.

[Lemur866]

If you think President Bush lied about the war and therefore got thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians killed, why didn’t you pick up a rifle and assassinate President Bush? If you have a gun and see someone about to stab a toddler, you’d be moral to shoot the stabber, right? If you have a gun and see someone about to get on the phone and order a general to drop bombs on Baghdad which is home to many toddlers, you’d be moral to shoot the president, right?

So why didn’t you try to kill President Bush? Too scared? Whaaaaa, I’m too cowardly to assassinate the president! Whaaaa! I’m a hypocrite! Whaaaaa!