I don’t know if they actually do this, but in the movies
when a character is doing really well they are kicked out
of the casino. If this happens for real, do the casinos have a legal right to do this, or do they just say “Leave
or our thugs will come after you”? Also in the movies
accusations of “counting cards” are often thrown at the
characters. If this means what I think it means, keeping
track of what cards are out there and deciding what the
best strategy to do is in your head, I think that that is
just a matter of you being a good player of whatever game
it is, and you should be rewarded for that ability not punished. Why is it grounds for kick out? Is it your
responsibility not to try as hard as you can to win the game?
Probably because casinos are privately run businesses whose goal is to take your money while paying out as little as possible. As a business, they can legally choose not to service anyone, so long as their reasons for so choosing are not discriminatory (that is, based upon race, creed, disability, or national origin). By entering their establishment and placing your bets youare agreeing to play by their rules, and that includes not using any techniques or devices which alter the odds in your favour.
I’m sure real card counters will be along shortly (there are a few on this board), but in the meantime,
-
AFAIK, casinos in the US can’t throw you out if you are truly just winning through sheer luck. I’m not sure, but I think can stop you from playing that particular game, though.
-
There’s a sticky point with blackjack, because theoretically all gambling games are supposed to be games of chance, and if they throw you out for using skills such as card counting, they’ve pretty much proved that it’s not a game of chance.
-
They can throw you out if you violate the rules, which generally includes no cheating, use of mechanical devices to help keep track of things, etc.
-
Card counting is not cheating. In Atlantic City, you can’t be barred for card counting. In Vegas, you can, although (AFAIK) the legality of it is ultimately murky. Of course, if you use anything besides your brain as an aid (such as paper and pencil), you’ve violated the rules, and can be barred (see #3).
IRL, barring card counters is bad business, because the allure of a “beatable” game draws many people to blackjack, including many who think they can make money counting cards, but end up losing.
Arjuna34
I was watching a Vegas documentary on A&E or some such channel. One guy, a casino employee I believe, said that could ask you to stop playing without giving you a reason.
True. Casino owners (syndicates) have the right to ask anyone to leave for any reason at any time they wish. You are their guests. Should you be on a “hot streak,” they can ask you to leave, though because the law of large numbers is on their side, if they can manage to keep your there long enough, they will win.
Counting cards isn’t against the law, but that’s not the point; a casino can kick you out for whatever reason. They can’t have you arrested, but I think it all falls under the whole “We reserve the right” attitude. I think its kind of disgusting, really, to kick a guy out who’s won a few thousand bucks when you are taking in millions all the time, but then when have casinos ever been anything other than a big scam?
-
-
- A number of months back a guy in St Louis got kicked out of one of the casinos. This was after he went and played blackjack for several months until he could count well enough that he started winning consistently, and then he got booted. He claimed that he spent ~$30,000 learning, and had only one back ~$3000. He was trying to sue them for “discrimination” of some sort, but the gist of the article was that what they had done was legal.
-
- A local St Louis casino employee once told me that they will track players’ win/loss ratios, and if someone is winning consistently they will get booted. It doesn’t matter how much the person is betting or winning. - MC
Working at the local cable company, I get to watch A LOT of television. A few weeks ago I viewed a ‘documentary’ on ‘The Travel Channel’ and ‘Discovery’ regarding gambling in various part of the U.S. (where it’s allowed). I learned that there are, indeed, only a FEW ‘lucky winners’ of large ‘pot’ amounts. There are mulimillionaire people called ‘whales’ that go to Vegas to spend lots of money and often-times lose thousands and thousands and thousands (you get the point, obscene amounts) of dollars on gambling. They’re the ones that get treated like royalty, free rooms at nice hotels reserved especially for them as well as free limo service and just about everything else they may want. I guess my point is this: casinos KNOW they’re gonna come out on top no matter how much anyone wins, and even if you DO win the big prize, you’ll probably be back for more and then lose it all. As for card counting, it’s not cheating, just good strategy, I don’t think the casinos expect you to not use the fundamental math you learned in school (like ratios/probability and stuff).
That’s why slot machines are greatly preferred by most casinos. The tables and the high rollers might suck people in, but the real payoff is in the slots, where the “vig” can be mechanically set, and becomes more and more accurate with the more people who play them.
It’s no wonder that the state of Connecticut specifically negotiated for a cut of the local Indian tribes’ slot revenues: those are solid numbers, dependant only upon the number of people who pull the trigger–er, arm.
Being a “guest” in an Indian casino carries a special weight. Not only are you in an establishment which can “reserve the right,” but you are in a nation which can kick you the hell out for whatever reasons they have codified. State laws generally do not apply. However, since Indian casinos are usually independent and constantly embattled by state intervention and the dominant paradigm, I’m willing to bet that they’ll let you have a longer run than you would at Circus Circus. I never bothered to find out for myself.
It is completely fair, really. They can kick you out if you win too much, just like you can choose to leave if you lose too much. (although, you hardly ever do, because you think you’re going to win it all back…)
What about professional gamblers? Do they really exist? If so, the only way they could make money is by winning a lot more than the rest of us (presumably by playing only blackjack and counting cards like Dustin Hoffman). I think I read somewhere that this is just what they do, and that casinos love them because they know just when to quit so that the casino makes more money from suckers watching and thinking, “Hey! I could do that!” than they pay to the professional. Anyone know the inside story for sure?
A high roller I know doesn’t bet with the rest of the crowd. A few times a year he goes to Vegas to a private hotel room with a select group of friends.
The dealer is supplied by the hotel and is NOT a player in the game.
In this case the hotel is simply providing professional services for a fee.
A professional card counter survives by disguising his winnings, so it appears to the casino that he’s losing. This cover-up is often more difficult than the counting itself.
It’s hard to make a decent, consistent living as an individual counter, due to the huge swings in blackjack results (he may have a 2% advantange over the house, but the nature of blackjack results in huge statistical swings before the 2% finally starts appearin). Really big money is usually made with team blackjack play, where a group of counters play, looking for a hot deck, then call in the “big player”, who bets large amounts, and appears to be an erratic lucky “high roller” to the casino. Needless to say, the casino isn’t too fond of this strategy.
Arjuna34
ICBW, but ‘counting cards’ does not guaranty you will win, all it does is increase the odds slightly in your favor. Basically a higher percentage of tens in the deck is to the players advantage, and lower percentage of tens is to the house advantage. To take advantage of this slight increase in your favor you must make dramatically larger bets when the deck is ‘rich’ with 10’s, and very small bets when the deck is not. All the house has to do is shuffle every couple of hands and card counting is useless.
The gift shops in most casinos sell ‘how to win’ books, so I don’t think they are to worried about it.
Yes, but the more they shuffle, the less money they take in. Time spent shuffling is time not playing blackjack, so they’re losing money. Also, the more they shuffle, the more players get bored and move on (if they shuffled often enough they’d even complain).
It’s a tricky balance for everyone. The casino usually doesn’t shuffle too frequently unless they think a card counter is at the table- one of many reasons for the card counter to disguise his play.
Another stragety is for the *dealer[\i] to count cards, and shuffle whenever the count is favourable to the player, but hold off shuffling when the count is favourable to the house. Card counters generally leave the table when they notice this. Tipping a dealer well may result in the opposite happening 
Arjuna34
My nephew is a bit of a math whiz. (790 on his math SAT while still in 7th grade.)
While working on his Masters in Engineering, he made extra bucks working for a coalition of professional gamblers.
He would arrive with a team of other young geniuses, and they would begin playing with small bets on fresh decks. If after counting, they found that a particular deck was getting good, they would signal surreptitiosly to a confederate who would arrive and begin making large bets.
You see, the advantages of card counting only work if you make a huge swing between early and late bets which makes it obvious that you’re counting. If your bet amounts were to remain consistent, you would lose enough at the beginning to make up for what you win toward the end.
It must work, though, because my nephew wasn’t betting his own money. Therefore the winnings had to be enough to justify the risk AND to pay the players for their trouble.
I can’t imagine a casino kicking you out for winning a lot of money through luck. The times I’ve done well in the casino I get free rooms and lots of comps. They know that short-term luck always runs out. The mathematical odds in the casino favor the casino. If you are winning just by luck, and not through any “cheating” or card counting skill, then you will eventually lose that money. When you win big is when they want you to stay! That’s how they get the cash back.
The SDMB’s own Sam Stone is a former professional poker player. Hopefully, he’ll see this thread and comment. He apparently made a pretty decent living at it.
One card-counter wrote a book in the 1960’s about his system. He had used a computer to simulate millions of plays and determine not only a good card-counting system, but the system of when to hit, stand, double, split, insure.
But he went overboard testing his system. When he figured the deck was bad for him, he’d bet $1, when it was good, he’d bet $50. Several casinos, after losing thousands to him, wouldn’t let him in the door. He’d disguise himself, which would work for a while, but ultimately he was reduced to writing about his system and lecturing.
His system depended on the casino using only one deck and dealing with it to a certain point. However, some casinos would shuffle after every hand, destroying his counting system. And nowadays, casinos usually use card shoes that hold 6-8 decks, which dilutes any advantage of counting by a factor of 6-8.
Casinos won’t kick someone out for using his play logic (e.g., if you have 16 and the dealer shows a 5, he’s likely to have 15 and will bust with the next card, as would you if you take it, so the best strategy is to stand), but if you’re obviously trying to count cards (counting in your head, bets vary too much) the will.
The only always & nevers in BJ: always split aces and eights, but never split tens.
Dear curious, a lot of stores that I go into have signs that say that they can refuse service to anyone. Why should that not apply to a casino?