Why can't DC get it right

It’s yet to be seen whether it’s all working for DC. For myself, I’m thinking they’ve screwed the pooch. Beyond box office, there’s all the ancillary revenue. Without knowing how much was actually spent and made on shirts, toys, sheets and such it’s impossible to know how things balance out.

One of the things that does jump out looking at Box Office Mojo is that we know who’s winning. It’s not even close.

BvS comes in fifth right now - though I bet it ends up sixth of lower after the fall movies hit. Star Wars is out there waiting, after all. But look at the studio on the four above it. They’re all Buena Vista. So Disney is on the hook for the top four grossing films of this year. And they’re not all one genre.

Civil War: Superhero Action
Zootopia: Animated original
Jungle Book: Live action (sort of) remake
Finding Dory: Animated sequel

When Rogue One comes out they might end up with the top five.

Hope? Let me tell you something, my friend. Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane. It’s got no use on the inside. You’d better get used to that idea.

I’m going to coin the term “empathic action”. Marvel’s action scenes have a strong element of pulling the viewer into cheering the hero and being pulled into wanting to be the hero. Like watching your favorite sports star in top form making a game winning play.

DC movies are more sanitized and distant, the action has more of a sense of dread and menace instead of the “woohoo” of an amusement ride. I don’t want to be Superman grimly slogging through a brute force apocalyptic battle. I do want to be Iron Man flirting with his secretary while in a perfect ballet of elegant action.

The lack of Zack Snyder.

I still say that it’s impossible to write good stories about Superman. What is possible, though, is to write good stories about Clark Kent. The good adaptations have all realized this.

And this is why WB is actually pretty worried about what they’ve been doing so far, according to rumors. Despite the massive marketing budget and movies that showcase, not merely character, but out-and-out icons, they’re being beaten in the market. Marvel has no character whatsoever to match Superman or Batman in the name recognition; they’re practically cultural touchstones.

Also, sure, the Dark Knight was good. It was also eight years ago and the sequel was pretty mediocre and isn’t fondly remembered. I sincerely hope Wonder Woman and Justice League are good movies, though.

I like DC TV. But, let’s not forget Agents of Shield, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and soon to be Luke Cage & Iron Fist.

And I still say that nobody in history has ever bought a comic book thinking, “I can’t wait to find out what happens to mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent next!”

He also forgot about Legends of Tomorrow, which imo drags down the DC average.

AoS is mediocre at best. The Netflix series are good, however.

Also…before I present this theory keep in mind i can only go off what i saw and the little I saw of each had me saying “Not bad. Kinda fun”:

Superman Returns and Green Lantern. Both are closer to Marvel movies in appearance than the Snyderverse. And both received shit tons of scorn.

I want to see a sci-fi heavy Atom movie.

Marvel does better movies, Daredevil and Jessica Jones excepted.

DC does better TV. I never watch AoS, for instance, because it doesn’t’ do anything for me. OTOH I religiously watch both The Flash and Arrow for both the acting and storylines. My husband, who is more acquainted with their comic background, says they both have that “comic book” quality that Marvel movies have. He can’t explain it but it’s there in both shows.

It’s more the contrast with the BtAS/Justice League version of Batman, where Bruce Wayne doesn’t think of himself as Bruce Wayne in his head. Superman thinks of himself as Clark Kent, from Kansas not Krypton.

And the better Superman stories have realized this. Morrison’s All-Star Superman, Johns & Busiek’s Up, Up, and Away!, and Morrison’s run when Action Comics restarted at #1 all worked with that. And that was the appeal of both Lois & Clark and Smallville. It’s also why I think that Superman Returns was so exceptionally bad in comparison to Chrstopher Reeves’ Superman.

Superman is the epitome of a hero. He’s a good person because that’s who he is. He could take over the world in an hour if he wanted but he doesn’t because he’s better than that. He makes you realize that there is good in the world and that makes you want to be a better person yourself. That’s why his character has lasted over 75 years. It’s also what makes his character harder to write for.

Superman Returns had a dark aesthetic but its main problem was that it wanted to be a reboot and a sequel all at once, and basically had nothing to offer except a rehashed '70’s movie. It wasn’t terrible by any means, but between a non-plot and a complete lack of character, it went nowhere.

Green Lantern was intermittently colorful, but had a horrendously bad editing job, and the story would have been poor anyway.

These movies didn’t fail because they were “too much like Marvel.” They weren’t. SR didn’t fail at all, but it had nowhere to go and nobody wanted to see more. Green Lantern was just a bad film.

I think GL was better than it gets credit for. I think that Reynolds nailed Hal Jordan. Yes, the villain was the weak link, but other than that…

I’m just sorry we won’t get to see the foreshadowed sequel (Sinestro).

Well… no.

Green Lantern wasn’t just bad, it was completely broken as a movie. There were genuinely good things about : the casting was spot on (not just Ryan Reynolds), and the special effects at least had an good concept that just didn’t come off well in practice. But the script is a hacked-together mess that simply doesn’t work, and the direction is spent waffling from underwhelming scene to underwhelming scene with drab, uninteresting characters who will ultimately go nowhere.

Green Lantern couldn’t decide if it wanted to be an expansive, epic space opera or a jokey-joke faux-Marvel adventure. In the end, it was just a dull, cumbersome slog.

I don’t think it’s as bad as its reputation, but I also can’t think of anything enjoyable about it except that scene where Carol recognizes him with the mask on.

My take on Green Lantern was that it was in no way terrible… but that it was in every way subpar. It was amazing in its consistency: The story was just not very good, and the acting was not very good, and the directing was not very good, and the chemistry between the actors, and the special effects, and the writing, and…

That’s tolerable in any one or two aspects of a movie. You could make a pretty good movie with Green Lantern-quality acting, say, so long as it had a good story, and directing, and so on. But when everything is at that level, the result is… not very good.

Here’s the thing I don’t get, is I see this question EVERYWHERE but I really can’t substantiate meaningfully. What exactly is “wrong” with the DC films? A lot of loud people are loudly criticizing them, and they’re not without mistakes, but a lot of the criticisms are either completely baseless or missing context.
They’re NOT box office flops. Anyway, compare the first films in both universes, Iron Man and Man of Steel, they did similar numbers domestically (318 and 291 respectively) but Man of Steel did a lot more internationally (585 and 668). When you account for the differences in budget, both films were similarly profitable in their theatrical runs, but MoS probably made a bit more when including endorsements and merchandise. Either way, totally NOT a flop

Similarly, people like to compare BvS to Avengers, but I don’t think that’s a reasonable comparison. First, Avengers was the first to do that, which gave it a novelty that chances are won’t be matched again any time soon, but also the most comparable film would be Justice League, which isn’t released yet. Should BvS have done better? I think so, and it probably would have done better if they’d done the extended cut rather than the theatrical one. But still, it’s only the SECOND film in their universe and it out-grossed the majority of Marvel films (all but Iron Man 3, Civil War, and the two Avenger films internationally) and was still massively profitable. IIRC, the final profit margin was somewhere north of $300M (after theater cut, P&A, etc.), but I don’t think that included Blu-Ray or digital sales (no direct source on this one).

Even Suicide Squad has done really well. It’s still in the theaters but it too is only out-grossed by one additional Marvel film, Guardians of the Galaxy, and it won’t catch that, but they’ve made a ton of money on it.

In short, no matter how you slice it, none of the films in the DCEU are box office flops.
And while I’m thinking about it: What about Spider-Man and X-Men? I’m not including non-MCU films because it just muddies the water. Every Spider-Man film until his appearance in Civil War was made by Sony and isn’t part of the MCU, and there were some good ones in there (IMO, Spider-Man 2 is among the best Superhero films ever) but there’s also some bad ones. And X-Men (along with Fantastic Four, and until the last few years Ghost Rider, Dare Devil, Elektra, etc.) are owned by Fox and, again, aren’t part of the MCU and there’s some really good and really bad films in there too. DC films are different because, unlike Marvel, Warner Bros. has the rights to ALL of their characters.
Another objection is that DC films are too dark. What does that even mean? Light and humorous films aren’t necessarily better, and dark isn’t necessarily bad. Just looking at Batman, Batman and Robin was easily the lightest and most humor oriented of the bunch, and The Dark Knight was probably the darkest, they the former is universaly considered the worst and the latter most often considered the best. IMO, anyone criticizing the TONE of the DCEU films is mis-attributing why they don’t like them. Sure, some people just never enjoy darker films, but that’s clearly not the case for anyone that had previously enjoyed the Nolan and Burton Batman films.
So why are they bad films? They’re not, that’s subjective. Yes, they’re not well received by the critics, but the fan response has been considerably better, though generally not as high as Marvel’s. Sure, plenty of people are bashing the films online, but these are the same ones that seem to act as though Marvel can do no wrong. Thing is, if you go back and look at Marvel’s phase one films, other than Iron Man, many of them weren’t initially as well received as people remember. For instance, not only was The Incredible Hulk not well received by fans, it actually likely lost some money and Iron Man 2, while profitable is often still maligned by many fans.
And, again, that’s not to say the DC isn’t without flaws. I think the biggest mistake they’ve made so far is the Theatrical cut of BvS, the ultimate edition was much better, though it still had some script issues. I also think that, perhaps, they’re going a little too deep into the comic book lore than they need to. As an example, I know a number of fans were confused by the Knightmare scenes, and for those unfamiliar with Darkseid, it’s hard to figure out what’s going on. Whereas most of the deep lore in the Marvel films has been in the form of Easter eggs, so they’re appreciated for those who get them but not harmful to understanding what’s going on for those that don’t.

Ultimately, I think the biggest problem is that DC has significant history in pop culture and many of those portrayals have been iconic to the point that they not only have to do what they’re doing now well, but they have to also win over fans who want more of that. The Dark Knight trilogy was able to avoid this because Batman was at a low point following the Schumacher abominations, so no one was pleading for that campy version back.

Consider that one of the main complaints about Man of Steel and BvS about Superman was that “this isn’t MY Superman”. I full-heartedly agree, and I LOVED the Christopher Reeve Superman growing up, this is a different version that’s not only a bit more grounded but updated to our time. Though I love those films, the original 1978 film is campy as hell and would be laughed out of the theater if it were made today, and I don’t mean the effects, the representations. Similar things have been said about all of the characters that have other iconic versions, notably Lex. If he’d been the exact same character with a different name, he probably still wouldn’t be liked, but he’d at worst been a forgotten no-name villain. But what characters have been well received? The ones we haven’t see before but people have been really eager to see, Wonder Woman (we saw her on TV and that was 40 years ago), Harley, Dead Shot, Amanda Waller (we saw her in Green Lantern, but no one cared about that version).

And then look at how this is a MASSIVE advantage to how Marvel characters are received. Before the film, Iron Man was NOT a household name the way Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man are. There were no previous versions to compare him to. His film was really well executed, but there’s no one wishing we had a different version. People were familiar with Captain America, but most people saw him as a campy, super-patriotic joke. The only character that had an iconic version previously was Hulk and, like Wonder Woman, that was at that time 30 years earlier and the previous movie was poorly received. In fact, I think part of the irony here will be that these versions are now all SO iconic that when they do eventually have to recast or reboot the characters, people will be bitching and moaning that they liked the RDJ and Chris Evans versions better.
Anyway, I guess TLDR is just give DC a chance. They’re 3 films in the DCEU, they’re still getting their footing, and they’ve made it clear that they’re listening to the fan criticism about what they did and didn’t like about BvS and Suicide Squad. Wonder Woman has some of those criticisms (though it’d already been in production for some time before BvS came out) but I think the real proof will be with Justice League. It’s at that point we can meaningfully compare that to Avengers and how well or how poorly they’ve course corrected. Personally, I’m optimistic. Even people I know who didn’t particularly care for BvS or Suicide Squad seem fairly optimistic about their upcoming movies. Time will tell.