Let me see if I can phrase this properly. I have been told by many that when I sing in a low (conversational level), that it sounds pretty good. I can hear it too if I’m in a room by myself.
But, if I ever try to sing loudly it all goes to hell; no vibrato, just flat tones.
Is this what distinguishes the wanna bes from the pros? Is this something that can be overcome through teaching?
Any experts out there?
I’m not an expert but used to do studio sound recording work. One of the guys I recorded was a guitarist who sang a little - all old blues stuff, mostly pretty obscure. He was trying to improve his singing, which was limited but pretty damn serviceable, by doing a course on book and tapes. I looked at the book and the guy behind it insisted that everyone can sing within limits. Most of the course consisted of working out what your voice was capable of, ways of somewhat expanding that capability and learning how to accurately hit the notes you wanted.
There are plenty of singers that have what I consider ordinary voices yet they are good singers because they concentrate on delivery not dynamics. For example I love old Dylan and all Tom Waits but don’t consider that either has a great voice. However the songs they have written for themselves aren’t often improved by being sung by a “better” singer.
And singing loudly is harder than singing quietly for two reasons. It is physically more complex (think running vs walking) and mentally harder - many people can keep beat perfectly well tapping something …until you make the something a drum.
I forgot to mention that the other thing stressed by the singing coach who wrote the book was that for most popular music you only need a fairly limited repetoire of notes you can accurately hit. I’m tempted to put a number but I’m sure someone will know.
What voice training I’ve had is more in the classical realm, but I expect a lot of that would apply across the board. When I started I couldn’t find my vibrato to save my life, but now it’s easy. And singing loudly (OR softly) is much easier if you learn to breathe right – from the diaphragm. It’s not really hard, but I find it tricky to remember to do it sometimes.
I’d say go for a few lessons, see what happens. I don’t know where you live (drat the upgrades!) but if there’s a nearby college, you can find out about local teachers.
one thing I have learned is not to try to sing as if you are someone else. For instance Don’t sing an Elton John song like you are Elton John. You need to sing in YOUR range. Most of the time you can easily drop or raise an octave and still sound perfectly fine as long as you still hit the changes accurately.
I used to try very hard to sing something as close to the original as possible with the result that I often found myself incapable of hitting a note and basically sounding like I was trying to imitate someone rather than singing for myself.
Let me start out by saying I’m not an expert, nor do I play one on the Internet. Having said that…
I had voice lessons for two years. My voice coach told me that vibrato is tied in to Proper Breath Support and Tone Support. If you don’t stand correctly (shoulders back, chest high, chin up, etc.), or don’t support your tone & volume properly (from the diaphragm, not from the chest), then you’re not going to get vibrato no matter how hard you try.
And by golly, once I did it her way, I got vibrato.
Yes, you should be able to train yourself to sing with vibrato. Chances are, you sound “flat” not only because you don’t have vibrato, but because you don’t have a rich tone, either - due to lack of proper singing posture & support. Incidentally, if you don’t have proper support your singing will also go either sharp or flat, even if you don’t realize it.
I’m a voice teacher based out of New York, so I might be able to be of some help. 
The sound of the voice is created when air comes through the larynx, causing the vocal folds (also called “chords”) to vibrate. There is a correct ratio of how much air is needed to make the folds vibrate correctly; too much causes ‘Pressurization’; the vocal folds can’t handle all of the air, and they actual smack into each other. Often times this pressure coincides with tensing of outer muscles that have no reason at all to be involved with vocalization (neck, jaw, throat, laryngial, etc.). The point is, that’s how most people try to sing louder, using extra air and muscular tension. We lose most of our control that way. Combine all of that with the fact that a huge majority of the people out there breathe incorrectly, expanding their upper chests with air instead of expanding a muscle called the “diaphragm”.
Stand in front of the mirror with your shirt off and breathe deeply. If you see your chest, clavicles, and shoulders move up, you’re breathing incorrectly. Now try this: do the same thing, but stop in mid-breath; see how your laryngial/neck muscles have shortened and tightened, just below your jaw line? That sort of thing robs you of much of the control you’d have otherwise. And the louder you try and sing, the more control you’ll lose. Think of a person with their feet in shackles. Though walking isn’t much of a problem, if they try to run, they’ll fall on their face. The faster they try and move, the less control they’ll have. (-:
With correct breathing and lack of tension, you can access a series of resonance areas in your skull called cavities. The sound goes into these areas and are magnified, as of someone were yelling into a cave. This is the reason many people can open their mouths and have a huge sound come out, they are connected to those areas (as anyone can be). Some people are blessed initially with a natural connection to those areas, most aren’t. Just like anything in life, some people are naturally great at something that other people need to be taught how to do. Doesn’t mean that with training the latter person can’t be as good, if not better, than the former person. The reality is much the opposite, in fact.
If you sound good singing at a speach volume level, than that is VERY good news for you. Matching pitches and having your voice do what you want it to do at that level is one of the hardest thing to learn (or to teach). If you have that inately, you’re off to a good start. Now you just have to learn the physical part.
IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: singing is an ATHLETIC activity. You’re developing physical excellence by not only strengthening musculature, but also by learning how to use those muscles in conjunction with each other with conservation of motion and correct technique. Just like if you were working with a track coach or a football coach. Technique brings potential ability into reality. Again, just like anything else in life.
I agree with WHITE RABBIT: see if you can find a good teacher in your area. Where are you from? It’s always possible I may be able to recommend someone, I have resources in various states, you might get lucky. Unfortunately, there are some teachers out there who don’t know what the f@#$ they are doing. Main thing that has been SCIENTIFICALLY proven time and time again: tension is a killer. Some people teach that tension is necessary. They are WRONG. And I’m speakig out of proven fact, not opinion.
Wow. I wrote a book here. 
I’ll be happy to help you in any way I can. I’m one of the lucky people who absolutely love what they do for a living, so I can talk about this stuff for hours. (-:
Feel free to email me if you like (that goes for anyone reading this), or simply ask questions on this thread, and I’ll do my best to help you. (-:
All the posters who talked about proper breathing techniques and support are absolutely spot on. You won’t become a more dynamic singer overnight but after practicing the deep breathing from your diaphragm and not your chest you will start to get better. With this you will improve your tone and your volume. It doesn’t say anything about your intonation but if you sound reasonably good now and have a good ear that shouldn’t be a problem. The only thing to remember when doing this is not to go all out full force at first you will get that with time after you learn the proper fundamentals. If you try to force it you may damage your voice which is both painful and ugly. Developing vocal nodes is not pretty, hence Macy Gray’s (sp?) hideous voice.
While we’re on the topic of singing: can someone who can’t sing be trained to sing? I’ve never been able to sing. My range is maybe an octave (I play piano and I’ve sung to the notes). I’m also not really on key (but don’t really hear it while singing). Could I take singing lessons at age 36 and hope to build some sort of voice? I’ve always dreamed of singing…
Freewill39 had great information, if only I had previewed.
Thanks, dorkusmalorkusmafia! I’m blushing all over…
Ok, this one’s a doozy. This is probably the question I hear more than any other. Based on all of the singers and non singers I’ve known, and all of the students I’ve worked with over the years, here’s my answer.
There is a very small percentage of people who are simply unable to “hear” a note they would need to hit, and therefore are unable to learn how to sing on key. This is, however, a VERY small percentage. The truth is, 90% of the people who think they are hopeless are actually far from it. If there’s even a little bit of potential, there is are many ear training techniques that can be used to develop a singer’s accuracy and ability to hear the note and reproduce it.
To sing on key, the singer needs to be able to hear the note in their “mind’s ear” before they can actually produce the correct sound vocally. Most often when someone goes off key, it’s because they haven’t clearly and sufficiently done that (although sometimes it’s also due to physical constraints). Like a sketch artist or painter who needs to see an image in their mind’s eye to reproduce it correctly on paper or canvas, a singer needs to clearly perceive the result in their head before reproduce it effectively.
Funny story: I have a student who, in our first lesson, tried to match a note I played for her on the piano. Instead of being on key, she hit a note that was COMPLETELY wrong, in a totally different part of her range, and she proceeded to slide around instead of staying on one note. She then looked at me sheepishly and said “that was pretty off, wasn’t it?” The fact that she was able to tell that she was off told me she had potential! Since then, she’s made a lot of progress. We’re currently working on “DO YOU WANT TO KNOW A SECRET?” by the Beatles. 
What about those of us who can carry a tune as well as the average person, but have absolutely ludicrous ranges? I will sing if I’m playing guitar, but my range is so far down in the cellar it’s ridiculous. If I were going to perform in public, I might get away with it, but I’d have to pick my material carefully - “Cocaine Blues”, or anything else I can growl my way through, OK, but forget any tender love ballads. Nobody wants to listen to most melodies sung in a range that I believe the formal voice teachers refer to as “basso profundo”.
I’m like yabob. I have a decent voice but no range.
My own question: Everyone I know can do falsetto. Some better than others of course (not everyone can be Barry Gibb). I, on the other hand, cannot do falsetto at all. Not a single note. Is this common? Uncommon? Is this something that also can be taught, or is it a physical restriction?
"I’m like yabob. I have a decent voice but no range.
Let’s start right off and say that “Falsetto” is one of the most misused terms in vocalise. The upper range part of the voice above the ‘breaking point’ (which is called the Secondo Passagio) is called the head voice. All vibration for the voice happens in the skull’s cavities, NOT in the chest (even the name 'chest voice is misleading…it’s only a name. The chest voice still vibrates in the skull). The head voice is the upper part of the voice. You can get a soft tone like Thome Yorke from Radiohead or Mel Torme, or a full tone like Pavoratti. It’s still called the head voice either way, just different uses of said head voice.
“Falsetto” is a FORM of head voice, in which the vocal folds only vibrate at the edges. It’s a choice of vocal quality, but it’s limitted in tone and projection. You can NOT really project all that much with falsetto. Barry Gibbs wasn’t singing in his falsetto, he was singing in his head voice with a soft palate/facial mask placement, which is why his voice was so clear and bright. It would not be that bright and resonant if it were falsetto.
As far as your difficulty accessing head voice, Algernon, what happens when you try? Does your voice cut out to nothing but air, with sort of a quick and subtle “POP” sound when you try? Or does it just crack and not have much power? What do you do for a living? Are you in a position in which you end up shouting a lot, or singing roughly on a consistant basis? You might have some swelling of the folds, or nodules. If you have good health insureance (or even if you don’t), I would suggest getting to a OTOLARYNGOLOGIST. That is a specialized E.N.T. who focuses on the singing voice.
YABOB: you need to allow your voice to get into that higher head voice range. Many rock and pop style singers who have deep voices don’t know how to do that. Try this: take a book or magazine, and read a few lines normally. Then, read a few more in sort of cartoonish voice in the higher part of your range. DON’T worry about if it sounds good or not, just get up there and see how easy it is to do. There are excersises you can do to develop that range once you allow yourself to access it, even rudimentarily.
Just because your range is low doesn’t mean you can’t go high, that’s a misnomer. I was trained as a lyric baritone with a low bass extension, but I also sing in Led Zep cover project for fun, and can hit all of the highs Plant does on the albums. It’s mostly about stepping outside your box and allowing yourself to sound like shit. If you hit the note comfortably, it DOES NOT HURT or FEEL TIGHT, then that’s great (pain or tightness is indication that you’re doing it wrong)! You’re on your way. It doesn’t matter how good it sounds, it will get better. Mechanics THEN Results.
Good luck!
I have to tell you freewill39 that yours is one of the most interesting posts I’ve ever read. Sorry for the delay in responding, I was indisposed yesterday. (Colonoscopy. One of those dreaded tasks necessary as one hits 50.)
I don’t understand this. Could you describe it a different way perhaps?
You’re saying that Barry Gibb wasn’t using a falsetto voice? There is such as thing as falsetto though, right?
I have a desk job, so while I sometimes would love to shout at people, I never do. 
To clarify, I don’t sing a lot and haven’t since long ago in High School. Other than my lack of range, I was pretty good though. Choir. Was even in the barbership quartet in our production of The Music Man.
When I’ve tried to access my falsetto (or head voice as you describe it), my voice just cuts out to air. No pop. No crack. Nothing. Does this mean I don’t have a head voice? Or does it mean I just don’t know how to access it?
Although all vibration occurs in the skull, the lower ‘half’ of the voice resonates primarily in the mask area (a resonance area located in the nasal pharynx). It’s a bony area that creates a bright and resonant tone that carries because of the higher frequencies that come from it. This is why we generally speak in our mid to lower range. The upper ‘half’ of our voice resonates primarily in our soft palate (touch the roof of your mouth…that is a resonance area called the HARD palate…move your finger back, and the roof gets soft and fleshy and ends just before the base of the throat, that is the SOFT palate). It creates a softer tone because the sound has to move through flesh, which adjusts the tone.
Now, you can apply apply mask placement easily to the upper range (the BeeGees, Axl Rose, Franky Valley) just as you can apply soft palate placement to the lower range (Mel Torme, Frank Sinatra, Thome York), but without any adjustments, the default resonance tendencies for the various parts of the range are as described above. That said…it doesn’t matter how you access the upper tones. The upper range notes, the part of your range that would normally default to the soft palate…that is your HEAD voice. The lower part that would default to the mask is your CHEST voice. <don’t be confused, you it’s all ONE voice, it just behaves a little different in the upper part versus the lower part>
Yes, there is such a thing as falsetto. But it’s produced differently than the way the voice usually works. Less air is applied so only the edges of the vocal folds vibrate. Due to this lack of air, there is just so much volume you can reach. Almost like a whisper: just how loud can you whisper, at top volume? Not too loud. The louder you try and whisper, the more it sounds like you’re just throwing breath out with no tone (which you are). But whispering and SPEAKING very quietly are different. Now, in falsetto, the tone IS voiced (as opposed to it simply articulated air, like a whisper), but by the nature of how it’s produced, it can’t achieve much volume.
Barry Gibb was using a form of head voice, but it wasn’t falsetto. The fact that his sound was bright and resonant shows that. Falsetto would be more like the “Hoo-Hoo” sound that Bob Seger uses in the end of ‘Kathmandu’, or Billy Joel uses at the end of ‘It’s Still Rock & Roll To Me’.
And the lower part of your range is resonant, not breathy or raspy at all, right? If you’re voice is healthy, you should be able to access your head voice a little. The voice cutting out in the upper range is usually evidence of some sort damage or issue, but you don’t do anything to abuse your voice…it’s hard to say without hearing you. Try this: lay on the floor, and say the word “HA”. Hold the word and slide upwards in your range. Don’t try and make it sound one way or another, just slide up. Keep the volume VERY quiet, and keep your body very relaxed. Are you able to get any sound in the upper part of your range, even a little one? Make sure you don’t close your mouth on the way up…keep that mouth open the whole time. Let me know how it goes.
What?!? First you destroy my belief that Barry Gibb sang in falsetto; now you tell me Frankie Valli didn’t sing in falsetto? :smack: Whew. I obviously had a completely different belief of what falsetto really is. I could swear these singers had a “break” in quality as they moved from a “normal” voice to their (wrongly attributed) “falsetto” voice.
Don’t misunderstand. I’m not doubting you. I’m still trying to get my head around this. And forgive my labeling of this high range as “falsetto”. It’s easier for me to convey my questions that way.
Could both Barry and Frankie voice each and every note between the bottom of their range and the top of their “falsetto” range? In my head right now I hear a “yodel-like” jump of a fifth, or even an octave between their lower voice and their “falsetto” voice.
Well, THIS should be interesting…
Surely there are some people who will just never have particularly decent voices, no matter how much they are trained?
I raise you Victoria Beckham (“Posh” Spice) as an excellent example. Despite the fact that she has been a “singer” for what - eight years? and has presumably been having lessons throughout that time to improve her performance, her voice is extraordinarily weak and tuneless. Even with the very obvious synthing going on (vocoder?) in her recent records, her voice is just bad.
If you compare many of today’s pop starlets to their counterparts in the 1980s, back then the voices were much better. Today, it is about looks and body far more than voice. But you would think that if their voices could be trained to be less ghastly, it would be. Seemingly not so.
Very often, the quality of the voice WILL change as you go higher, especially as you pass the “breaking point” (which is called the Passagio). That’s the place in your voice right near the middle of your range where we tend to crack because the voice isn’t sure whether to move from Chest Voice to Head Voice (or vice versa), or stay where it is.
Voices do tend to get thinner the higher they go. They don’t HAVE to, they can be trained to do otherwise, like in the case of an operatic tenor, but in pop and rock, that’s what mostly happens.
They stuck in a mask based head voice most of the time, that was where they were home, and that was where their voices sounded most individualized. But when they went into the lower ranges (I’m a little more familiar with Barry Gibb’s voice than Frankie Valli’s), it was mostly for the effect of starting in a less extreme place, so they had a place to ascend to, and “wail”. 
As far as training a singer who is not naturally good: like I said, some people are beyond help, but those people are rare. But, many people, though they have potential and can improve, will never be Cyndi Lauper / Freddy Mercury / Mandy Patinkin / Ella Fitgerald. If I take a class in auto repair, and pay attention, practice, do homework, etc., I will learn how to fix cars, despite the fact that I’m fairly unhandy. But that doesn’t mean that I’ll be as good as anyone else at fixing cars, it just means I had potential to improve, I worked at it, and so I did improve. And if I’m hopelessly dense and unhandy, I may not get it at all. But I’d have to be inept to not show a little progress…but who knows, in that area, maybe I am.
Don’t worry, dude. You’ll always fit in at the Karaoke bar. :rolleyes: