Why did the Allies fear "The Red Baron" so much in WW1?

Factual Questions
1

Okay so he was an ace fighter pilot who managed to kill (estimates) between 80-120 Allied pilots. Still though, it was just one guy - not an entire airforce. Does he really deserve his reputation as one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time?

And did his penchant for killing result from the fact that he was more skillful or just more plain aggressive? Was it harder to pilot a fighter craft back in those days (and use in warfare) than it is today?

In case you have no idea who I am talking about, his real name was Manfred von Richtofen.

2

80-120 kills was absolutely astounding. Remember, it was a point of pride to become an “Ace” which if I remember correctly signified that you had shot down 5 planes.

I would bet that he was more skillful than the average pilot, as plain aggressiveness tends to get you shot up.

I cannot comment on how hard it was to pilot aircraft in combat back then and today, but there have definitely been technological advancements that make it easier to keep the plane in the air.

3

I suspect it’s fear of the unknown. Imagine going up there and not knowing if this killer shark is going to be waiting for you. It would be like crossing an open field, knowing there’s a sniper out there somewhere. Sure he’s only one guy, but if you’re the one who happens to run into him, auf wiedershen.

4

Well, he was the leading ace in WW1. More confirmed kills than anyone else on either side. It is a bit odd, though, that he has been so glorified compared to others such as Capt Rene Fonck, Major E Mannok, or any of his relatives in the war. Maybe it was because of how recognizable his plane was. When you would have seen a brilliantly red plane, you knew it was the “Red Baron” and knew your chances of surviving would be slim. Apparantly he only made two mistakes while flying.

5

Think about it this way: If an air force is evenly fighing, then each man will kill either 1 or 0 enemies before dying.

The Ol’ RB killed about a 100. Can you take up a weapon an kill 100 men, similarly equipped? Probably not. Its an amazing feat and something that terrifies people. The RB essentially was an air force unto himself. At that time, very few nations even had an airforce, let alone 100 planes.

6

Richtofen was not merely a high-scoring ace; he was the highest scoring ace of WWI, with 80 victories (placinging him 8 victories or so ahead of the leading Allied pilot, the Candian Billy Bishop).

I suspect that the “great fear” is more a matter of public awareness through the Peanuts comic strip and Snoopy’s constant battles against him. During WWI, I’m quite sure that Immelman, Boelcke, Voss, and many others inspired quite as much fear in Allied pilots at the time as Richtofen did. (Just as Bishop, Mannock, Guynemer, Nungesser, and others inspired fear among the Germans.)

There are a number of stories about him that indicate that toward the end of his career he was very cautious about when to pick his fights in order to guarantee a kill, but those stories tend to have been written from the Allied perspective (and usually not by pilots) after the war. In order to get to 80 victories, he had to have been more than merely competent.

7

Which were…?

8

In combat aviation, if you can survive 5 minutes of actual air-to-air combat, your odds of living to see them end of the war go up to 50/50.

So, Von Richtofen was **cking amazing! :eek:

9

Both were him following an aircraft too long. The second mistake, following a camel, cost him his life. Oh yeah, Capt. Rene Fonck, a French ace, came closest to the Red Baron in confirmed kills with 75.

10

BTW, a camel was a plane.

11

His 2 mistakes?

He got shot down twice. The second time was fatal.
I’m pretty sure the reason for the fear of the allied pilots was one simple reason. Intimidation.

He had huge cajones. Even in WW1, aircraft camouflage was important, even if it was only having your plane doped an olive drab colour. He flew a bright red plane, that could be seen and recognized. It was essentially a challenge to all who saw him to attempt to shoot him down. They knew that this Baron had the skills and experience to back up any challenge.

In WW1 it was basically luck of the draw if you engaged an ace or a rookie. The Baron was a seasoned veteran, and in most cases, no matter what the inherent skill of a pilot is, experience will win out every time. By painting his plane red, he let everyone know not to screw with him, even if he was about to take out your buddy, because you’d be next… (Although Roy Brown proved him wrong when the Baron went after ‘Wop’ May, and Brown got behind him and took him out)

So my theory of the fear?

Balls. Plain and simple.

12

Two mistakes?

Two nitpicks:

The first time that Richtofen was shot down, he was attacking “easy meat,” an almost obsolete scout. The observer opened up on Richtofen from 300 yards–an extreme distance in air warfare in those days–and continued firing continuously until he managed to graze Richtofen in the head with the rain of lead.

A lot of pilots personalized their aircraft with wild color schemes. While Richtofen’s predecessor as jagdstaffel commander, Boelcke, had used neutral colors for camoflage, once Richtofen took over, the entire sqadron began using bright color schemes. Richtofen’s solid red was distinctive, but no more so than the patterns of his other pilots.

13

Just to get a bit of perspective on von Richtofen’s numbers, does anyone happen to know how many planes fly from a typical modern aircraft carrier ?

14

The Nimitz class carriers generally carry about 85 aircraft, although I suspect that, as some sort of comparison, claiming that Richtofen shot down “nearly the complement of a carrier” is open to quite a few objections.

15

Remember, WW1 is fairly early in the history of avation and the planes were made of wood. No ejection seat and some planes would fail just from flying.

Besides, isn’t 80 planes fairly hefty for any war?

16

What more would he have had to have done to deserve this reputation, in your opinion?
**

“Penchant” means “liking” or “inclination”. I think you mean something like “talent”, here.

17

That way it was called the Flying Circuss, some planes were yellow, others blue, and there were many red with some trimming.

18

“That way”??? :confused:

Ejem, I meant: “that´s why…”

Stay focused Ale, stay focused…

19

Well, here’s one for you. Can anyone name the top-scoring fighter ace of all time?

It was…

Erich Hartmann, a Bf-109 pilot in the Luftwaffe in World War II. He shot down 352 planes. No, that is not a typo. Three hundred and fifty-two.

Many, many fighter aces in WWII shot down more planes than Richtofen, and many aces in WWI were pretty close:

Richtofen (Germany) 80 - killed either by ground fire or by pilot Roy Brown
Fonck (France) 75 - survived
Bishop (Canada) 72 - survived
Udet (Germany) 62 - survived
Mannock (Britain) 61 - killed by ground fire
Collishaw (Canada) 57 - survived
McCudden (Britain) 57 - died in an accident
Beauchamp-Proctor (South Africa) 54 - survived
Guynemer (France) 54 - shot down by a bomber
Lowenhardt (Germany) 54 - killed in an accident
MacLaren (Canada) 54 - survived, actually right up to 1989

If any USA dopers are wondering, the top American ace was of course Eddie Rickenbacker, with 26 kills. For some reason, Canadians are way overrepresented on the list - three in the top 10 (well, 12, there’s a three-way tie for tenth) and the #13 man is Bill Barker, another Canadian. I don’t know why that is, or if it’s just a fluke.

As you can see, Richtofen’s record was the best, but it’s not like he was off the charts. And the Allied pilots ( who ranked below him did not get the opportunities he got; the Allies had much larger air forces for most of the war, and so had fewer targets and less time in the air for the most part.

Richtofen is famous because, well, he was the first one. His style and his funny looking plane caught people’s imaginations more than anyone else, and he had a cool nickname, so he stuck in people’s minds. There wasn’t any particular reason to “Fear” him more than Billy Bishop or Rene Fonck or Ernst Udet. After all, while those guys shot down a few less planes, they didn’t get killed by the enemy! But the Red Baron was the flashiest, so he got the press.

20

FWIW there was some difference between official and unofficial victories. My 1988 Guinness Book (admittedly a bit out of date but it’s all I’ve got on hand) shows the CONFIRMED kills as:

Col. Rene Fonck (France) 75

Rittmeister Manfred von Richtofen (Germany) “Fewer than 60”

The Red Baron’s total is what could be confirmed from official German records.

UNOFFICIALLY, von Richtofen was credited with 80 kills however Rene Fonck was unofficially attributed with up to 125 kills. The high-scoring German ace was Col. Urnst-Udet with 62 confirmed kills as previously mentioned.

(p494, 1988 Guinness Book)

Leaving all this aside, air to air combat was something new in WWI and so the fighter pilots got a lot of press. As noted, anyone with 5 kills was an ace and something special, so those pilots who racked up scores of kills were definitely in the Major Leagues and probably got a heckuva reputation. Seeing that red triplane coming at you must have been like finding out that your boxing opponent at the gym tonight is Mike Tyson and he’s in a bad mood…