Why did the Justice Department fail to protect us from Trump?

I think that the better question on all this isn’t about the DoJ.

The real question is : “Why did Congress fail to protect the American people from Trump?”

The drafters of the US Constitution squarely put that role on Congress, by giving Congress the duty to impeach and convict for high crimes and misdemeanours. After that, the criminal process was to take over.

The evening of January 6, there were speeches in the vote-counting about how terrible the day’s events had been. Even Lindsay Graham said something about his wild ride with Trump being over.

And then on January 7, it was back to the GOP defending Trump, even though as a political matter (not a criminal standard, but a political one), it was clear he had stirred up the riot that had invaded Congress and tried to prevent them from carrying out their constitutional duties.

In my opinion, that’s where the real failure was, a breakdown in the role of Congress to protect the American people.

From an expert in prosecuting criminal conspiracies:

Deep Throat stamped his foot. "A conspiracy like this … a conspiracy investigation … the rope has to tighten slowly around everyone’s neck. You build convincingly from the outer edges in, you get ten times the evidence you need against the Hunts and Liddys. They feel hopelessly finished — they may not talk right away, but the grip is on them. Then you move up and do the same thing at the next level. If you shoot too high, then everyone feels more secure.”

All the President’s Men, chapter 9.

Thank for the responses, all. What I was getting at was whether more human-hours of work would solve it, but I suppose if the research is complex, for every five hours you spend researching, you’d need three to communicate with the other researchers and absorb what they’re doing and adjust strategies and lines of enquiry, so it’s not actually going to go much faster.

I think a large part of it is being quite ignorant as to what such research looks like from outside the legal field.

And for each potential charge, there’s the legal requirements, and the evidential one.

Suppose you have a potential offence that has three elements: prosecution must prove elements A, B and C for there to be a conviction.

So there’s the legal research: what have the courts said is necessary to prove A, B and C? How clear-cut are the precedents to tell you what you need for each element? What kind of evidence have the courts accepted in the past, and what have they rejected?

Then the prosecutors have to ask themselves, “Do we have evidence to prove each element?”

Maybe they conclude that the documents they have are solid to prove element A, and they’ve got three or four witnesses that are good for element B, but they’ve only got one witnesses that can provide evidence on element C.

They have to do their own assessment of that witness. How strong is that witness? Are there weaknesses in what the witness can testify to? Is there any reason to doubt the testimony ? Will the witness be really vulnerable on cross ? Is it worth going to trial depending largely on the testimony of one key witness? That kind of assessment takes sound professional judgment based on the individual prosecutor’s experience in court.

And, are there questions about the admissibility of the evidence? Even if the documents are solid for element A, is there any question about their admissibility, under the rules of evidence? Is there a constitutional issue about how they were obtained?

And even if the prosecutors conclude that all their witnesses can testify to all the elements of the offence, there’s the final overall standard: is there a reasonable likelihood of conviction? (This test is phrased differently in different jurisdictions, but that’s how it’s commonly expressed.) It’s an overall assessment, taking all the evidence into account, and weighing it against the legal standards the courts have developed for that charge.

Is the potential charge or legal theory an unusual one? Assault with a weapon is a very common charge and won’t take as much detailed research or assessment. Most prosecutors start their career with common charges like that, and there’s ample case-law to tell you what you need. But if it’s an unusual charge, unusual facts, with offences that aren’t charged very often? That assessment of reasonable likelihood can be quite difficult.

But that test is a necessary step in the exercise of prosecutorial discretion. We don’t want the state bringing charges that have no reasonable likelihood of conviction, because that would be an abuse of the state’s power. Meritless prosecutions of an individual are a misuse of the prosecutions power. Charging a citizen with a serious criminal charge can drag them through the wringer, emotionally, financially, and socially. A charge should only be laid if it meets that standard of a reasonable likelihood of conviction. You don’t just bring five charges and see if any stick, on spec.

Now rinse and repeat for the next potential charge, and the next.

Sure, more resources help, but these are all necessary steps, particularly for complicated charges. And, we don’t want to rush them, because that can contribute to obvious mistakes.

To put it in a different context: if you’re researching an academic issue for a book you want to write, more resources help, like support staff, research grants, maybe a sabbatical to focus on the writing. But, there is an irreducible minimum of work that you need to do yourself, correct? That you have to research before you can write, and that you then have to write and re-write to meet the high academic standards for a sound reputation? Maybe have a trusted colleague read the draft for critical commentary?

Bringing charges, particularly in a complex case, is like that. There is an irreducible minimum of work that must be done, and takes time, no matter the resources.

I was in management over operations and various business processes for 40 years. We had an old saying, which I’m sure we didn’t originate: You can’t produce a baby in one month by teaming up nine women. Meaning, of course, that while most processes can benefit with additional bodies, that’s only up to a point. There’s a line that’s crossed where more bodies actually decrease efficiency. Some processes simply take a certain amount of time, like it or not.

Picture vendor contract review (an area I had a lot of experience with). Sure, let the Info Sec contract experts review that section. Let the Business Continuation guys review the BC terms.

But you can’t slice it up beyond a certain point. “Get a thousand lawyers in here. Everybody’s gonna review one sentence.”

Some things just take a certain amount of time, even with access to any level of staff. More than that will actually slow down processes and make a mess of things.

Some senior guys never understood this concept.

“Build the pyramids, and I want it done in two weeks.”

“Can’t do it.”

“You can have as much staff as you want.”

“More staff just has people tripping over each other. Can’t do it.”

I truly appreciate the informed perspectives offered above by @Aspenglow, @Northern_Piper, @Spoons, @ParallelLines and others sharing completely valid reasons why these prosecutions have taken so long.

And yet …

The stakes were and are so much higher than in any previous prosecutions. We’re talking about someone who challenged the very foundations of our democracy and is clearly still a threat to it.

Plus, everyone knew that Trump would pull every delaying trick in the book. Not sure anyone could have predicted the SCOTUS being all in for him, but shenanigans by Trump-appointed judges should have been anticipated.

So I do fault the DOJ for approaching this as business-as-usual. Not sure what exactly they could have done differently, but at the very least, Jack Smith should have been appointed the day after Garland was confirmed.

You can’t build a garage faster using 100 people, than you can with 10 people.

Recent reports have mentioned that FEMA, even if it can get through the two recent hurricanes, will be out of money for the next, and their current staff can’t handle any more emergencies.

Smart people have been screaming for years that the IRS needs more staffing - not to harass ordinary people but merely to collect the money already legally owed on existing high-end tax returns that is not being paid. Those staff would more than pay for themselves.

FDA inspectors are down to inspecting certain plants less than once a year, since some now have a caseload of over 300.

Name any department in the government and you’ll find a pattern of everyday, important, urgent, and even critical functions being skipped or delayed because of lack of staffing and funding.

The President is to blame, because he has not called for increased staffing all around.

Congress is to blame, because it is not passing bills to provide increased staffing and funding.

But really, the electorate is to blame, because people balk and, if pushed, explode if any politician says we need to spend more money on government. (Unless it’s the military and I explode if they do that because just the money the military wastes each year could fund any of the other departments.) The Republicans have for decades accused Democrats of tax and spend policies, a successful political strategy. Tax is a simple word. Taxes come out of pockets. No tax is a good tax. You can describe a program and get majority approval for it, but as soon as you say what it will cost in taxes, approval drops to unworkable lows.

Some variation of this dilemma is present in all representative democracies. The Scandinavian countries, held up as models of what can be done with government, have social contracts that provide more benefits than America but at the cost of 60% tax rates. (Sweden, famously, once had a combination of taxes that reached 104% of income on the rich. The rich left Sweden and those taxes are no more.) Governments are finding that current rates are a cap; the price of additional services, say for immigrants who do not look like the homogeneous populations, produces ferocious backlash.

The intermingled pile of problems that block sensible government has been decades in the making, often from seemingly good and pure acts like increasing legal protections for the innocent, often for teeth-gnashing subservience to the interests of the rich and powerful. Untangling a mountain-high pile of spaghetti will take longer, as new problems will appear in that time. And don’t suggest just using a Alexandrian sword. That way lies madness.

To do what? Jack Smith is a prosecutor, not an investigator. Let him sit and twiddle his thumbs while the investigation carries on? That’s not his role.

People who are so frustrated with the pace of these prosecutions don’t seem to understand the process. Do you think meaningful investigation was happening while Bill Barr was in charge of DOJ? If you want someone to demonize, demonize that traitorous bastard. Not only did he do everything in his power to stop investigations into Trump, he did everything he could to eliminate evidence of those crimes while he was in control. Yet somehow, this is Merrick Garland’s fault.

As has been ably pointed out, investigations take the time they take. It’s an involved, difficult process. And these aren’t the cases to half-ass it. Prosecutors like Jack Smith don’t have a role to assume until the investigators are done and bring their evidence to the prosecutors. Then the prosecutors make a determination on whether there is sufficient evidence to proceed with an indictment.

And while we’re at it, let’s dispense with this notion that no investigation by DOJ was going on while the House Congressional Select Committee carried on its work. We still don’t know what investigation was being done by DOJ. Why? They don’t talk about it. They never do. The House Committee’s proceedings were public. DOJ’s are not. That’s why Bill Barr was able to pre-hose Mueller’s investigation: Barr knew Mueller couldn’t talk about it.

Merrick Garland wasn’t going to make the same mistake. That’s why he was perfectly willing to let the House Committee carry on its public investigation. But it’s laughable to believe that the House Committee had more power to investigate than DOJ.

Did you notice which parts of Smith’s most recent pleading were redacted? Most of the testimony relating to Mike Pence. Mike Pence, who wouldn’t sit for the House Committee. But he testified to DOJ under subpoena. That’s the difference.

No. He is not treated “favorably.” But he has more money. He has access to hundreds of attorneys. He can exploit every possible defense. It’s not a matter of DOJ treating him in a special way, it’s just an inherent flaw in the system. And yet to eliminate it would mean to deny due process to us all. If you have a better solution to offer, I’m all ears. Meantime, you disparage the DOJ, undermining trust in one of our foundational institutions: The rule of law. Please don’t.

I’m sorry, but this is just how it works.

You think these cases are unusual?

(Gift link.)

Here’s another. One defendant, one crime. No special defenses such as being a former president.

Delays are the norm. Not the exception. Thus it has always been.

I agree with @Exapno_Mapcase. Underfunding is a big part of the problem.

Don’t forget, it took just as long for Fani Willis to indict in Georgia. It seems any valid criticism of Garland would have to apply to her as well. And I don’t think I’ve heard any.

Of course you are right. Your knowledge and insight vastly exceed mine. Barr should rot in hell.

But everyone expects Bill Barr to be the bad guy. He’s already pre-demonized for everything he did to shield Trump while in office. I’ll only speak for myself, but when Biden was elected, I expected his team to restore the rule of law by moving heaven and earth to ensure the leaders of the election deniers and insurrectionists never had another chance to overthrow our democracy.

Has the DOJ moved heaven and earth? Hard to say, but it’s clear that the election deniers and insurrectionists are still free to destroy our country.

So maybe (probably) my expectations were unrealistic, but the fact remains that even if they did everything humanly and legally possible, Garland and the DOJ have failed to protect us from Trump.

To be sure, there’s plenty of blame to go around.

In the strictest sense, this is true. But they should be at the very bottom of the list of those to blame for failing to protect us from Trump. It’s like blaming the person sweeping up the elephant dung long after the parade has passed.

Why did we elect Trump? Blame those who did.

Why did Barr ignore his oath and protect Trump instead of following the evidence and investigating his many, many crimes? Blame Barr. He’s a complete piece of shit, and he’s far more culpable for the failures to protect us from Trump than Merrick Garland.

Why did Republicans fail to act when they could have either removed Trump from office via the 25th Amendment or two impeachment proceedings? Get rid of these traitorous bastards, now. Better late than never!

A whole lot fewer insurrectionists are still free to destroy our country than were free on January 6, 2021. You have Garland to thank for that. Moreover, his efforts to prosecute those folks have put a serious damper on would-be insurrectionists plotting for January 6, 2025. Of course, no thanks or appreciation for things that don’t happen, eh?

As for election deniers, I don’t know what role the DOJ would have to play in that. It’s not a crime to be an ignorant asshole. That’s on us to fix.

Those are the bad guys. Of course they should all face justice. I’m angry that the good guys haven’t made them do so.

But I get it. It’s like being angry an umbrella didn’t protect me from Hurricane Helene.

I do appreciate that the rabble is facing justice. But rabbles are a dime a dozen, and the rabble-rousers are still out there.

Don’t worry. The Republicans got rid of almost everybody who didn’t vote to impeach Trump in the next election.

Ooops. Sorry. That sentence should have read, The Republicans got rid of almost everybody who did vote to impeach Trump in the next election.

We’ve already mentioned the turnaround from the mass of Republicans in Congress - and elsewhere - utterly condemning 1/6 the day after to the the mass of Republicans in Congress - and elsewhere - brushing it off by the end of the week. Not enough attention is being paid to that switch. If anyone had any tiny doubts about Trump’s complete hold over the party before, that craven spineless lily-livered dastardly recreant retreat by Republican leaders forever sealed their misfeasance with the stinkiest tar.

Just to be clear, I think this statement reflects your and our feelings, but isn’t factually accurate. We’ve had dozens of threads about this, about MAGA pushing out valid conservatives with their loyalty tests, and how quickly and completely Trump critics turned lickspittles in 2016, 2020, and after 1/6. Heck, even more recently, Haley is being courted by Trump despite her rather muted criticisms she gave out.

No, IMHO everyone here, and in most of the honest news reporting has commented on it countless times. It’s just one more of the excesses though, and compared to threating out and out autocracy the way Trump does, it does seem like a lower-volume threat.

As for those in Right Wing Dominated media, they heard all about it and CHEERED.

As many others, in this thread and others have said, it’s a cult, with a cult leader, and those that are seeking to profit themselves or gain power as hangers on. One of the reasons I have in many threads generally differentiated between (R) and (MAGA) - the former is now an empty husk hollowed out and worn by the latter.

They are still out there. But so far as I know, there’s no way to pre-prosecute people who might-could commit crimes. We have to wait until they actually commit crimes.

A far more effective fix for the rabble-rousers would be to address the massive MAGA propaganda machine: Fox, OAN, NewsMax, Musk, Russia. Any ideas?

The “rule of law” is mostly fiction; it’s all about privilege, bigotry and money.

As for Trump; the lesson of the Nixon pardon for both the Republicans and the nation in general is that if you have an “R” next to your name you are above the law. And they took that and ran with it; Trump is merely the culmination of their growing lawlessness. The reason so many people are condemning how long the case is taking is because they have decades of experience telling them that the Democrats utterly refuse to hold the Republicans responsible for anything.

I’ll thank you to stop making the same point I tried to, but much more clearly and with 200 less words. That is all.

We’ll agree to disagree on the “rule of law.” I’ve seen lots of people held accountable, rich and poor alike. And I’ll ask again: If you find this system so objectionable, what system do you think should replace it?

And we let them get away with it for all these years. We didn’t take the Supreme Court appointments seriously. We ignored big red flags like Citizens United. We elected Republicans for decades, despite their “growing lawlessness.”

Blaming Merrick Garland for all this is simply misguided.

I wasn’t trying to suggest that the DOJ was powerless. They have lots and lots of investigative powers.

What I was saying is that the House committee also had lots of powers and could bring a particular government perspective to what was going on that would be a different perspective to what the DOJ could do. Complementary investigations, and the fruit of the house investigations could be of value to the DOJ.

I agree that the DoJ works best when it carries out its investigations quietly. It’s not meant to be a political process, and operates under different approaches than the legislative oversight.

I have read one article some time ago that indicated that the DOJ found that the material the House sent them was of considerable value. (Can’t find it now.)