Why did US presidents become worse around 1830?

This one is a bit of a spin off on the thread about ranking the US presidents. Looking at the list, there’s definitely a trend, with only a few notable exceptions.

It seems like the top of the list is dominated by a mixture of the founding fathers (Washington, both Adamses, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe) and recent presidents (FDR, Eisenhower, Truman, Obama, LBJ, Kennedy, etc.). The bottom of the list seems to be mostly 19th and early 20th century guys (Andrew Johnson, Buchanan, Pierce, Tyler, Fillmore, etc.). The main exceptions seem to be Lincoln as a mid-19th century POTUS at the top and Trump as a contemporary POTUS at the bottom. Yes, Andrew Jackson and James Polk are somewhere in the top to middle on the list from that thread, but IMHO they should both be lower.

What happened between JQ Adams and Andrew Jackson that led to this seeming drop in the quality of our POTUSs, the trend not to be reversed until FDR with only a couple of exceptions (Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt)?

I don’t know, but the period that strikes me as having the most mediocre Presidents is the stretch from the end of the Civil War through the 1890’s. In fact it’s even referred to some times as the ‘era of forgettable Presidents’.

I agree with the forgettable part. Of course being forgettable isn’t the only way a POTUS can be bad. The pre Civil War presidents between Jackson and Buchanan were in many ways worse because they weren’t forgettable. Andrew Jackson and the Trail of Tears. James Polk and Manifest Destiny. James Buchanan and the Dred Scott decision. There’s a lot more where these things came from, which keep those guys from being forgettable, but ends up making them worse rather than better than the forgettable guys.

Maybe the country experienced a sort of ‘founder syndrome’ as the founders died off and the next generation inherited the reins. It’s probably no coincidence that a significant political realignment occurred during the era. This era includes the rise and decline of the Whig party followed by a host of splinter parties, such as the nativist ‘Know Nothings’

The sectionalism that led to the Civil War may have been a drag on Presidential effectiveness.

In a nutshell: The great statesmen of the era before Lincoln were Henry Clay, John C. Calhoun and Daniel Webster. They all ran for the office, but, by opposing each other, kept each other from getting the nominations, which then went to dark horse candidates who were less qualified.

It seems to me that “forgettable” is one of the better things a president can be.

Agreed. Someone has to be in the middle. Not all of the POTUSs from 1865 - 1932 were bad. Some were of average competence and not particularly evil. Grover Cleveland, James Garfield, Calvin Coolidge, Chester Arthur and so on. Guys like that were forgettable, but I’d also take one of them over someone like Buchanan, the Andrews (Jackson and Johnson), and Trump.

I think there’s probably a strong measure of recency / availability bias involved, at least for the ones in a low-to-middling position on the list (the ones at the very bottom were legitimately bad). Everybody knows the first few presidents and Lincoln, and most people old enough to be included in a survey of historians have personal memories of the ten or so most recent ones, but the Benjamin Harrisons and Martin van Burens are just … not very salient. Plus, the longer ago someone lived, the more likely they are to have done stuff that is very bad by modern standards, so unless they have enough positive achievements going for them to cancel some of those things out, I can see why most of the nineteenth-century presidents might tend to get pushed downward by default.

From 1825 to 1860 America went from the Era of Good Feelings to the brink of Civil War. The men who presided over that were probably not great at their jobs.

This is what I’m getting at. I’m not (just) judging Andrew Jackson, Andrew Johnson, James Buchanan, etc. by the standards of 2021, or 2001, or even 1961. I’m also judging them by the standards of 1790 - 1830, and they fail to live up to the standards of those times just as much as they fail by the modern standard.

ETA: Of course Andrew Jackson wasn’t going to be a modern liberal, but why was he so much worse than the six guys that came before him?

I do think there was a long spate of poor Presidents, I don’t include Jackson and Polk among them, frankly. I’ve said in other threads I’ve always been a tad anti-Jacksonian (for his disastrous Bank policies), but he was a very consequential President that did a lot of things that set the course of the country for generations. Additionally he was just a very strong political operator, in an era of weak candidates and big party power brokers, of weak Presidents and dominant Congresses, Jackson dominated everyone through sheer personality and force of will.

Frankly anyone who isn’t willing to give California and Texas back to Mexico is a huge hypocrite to criticize Polk or Manifest Destiny. The U.S. conquest of the land to the Pacific was a good thing, not a bad thing, and it’s hilarious to try to portray something that literally allowed our great country to be great as a bad thing. Mexico has always been a terribly mismanaged, ill governed country (if you actually read the history of Mexico prior to 1850, it was arguably much worse so then than even now.) We could have a whole other thread about why that is, but the simple reality is this land was far butter under American management, and the Mexican Cession and Texas are truly part of what has made America a great country and a great power.

Now having said all of that, I think a major reason we had a long string of middling and poor Presidents is because of how the party system worked and the role of both the Presidency and the Federal government.

The President’s original design really made his handling of matters of war and foreign affairs extremely important because they are almost sole executive powers, and powers in which the Federal government has basically sole authority (not shared with the state.) Domestic policy the President was simply one part of the Federal decision making apparatus, and on top of that the Federal government was far, far weaker relative to state governments in the 19th century.

The way the party system developed in the 19th century is party power brokers would make most of the major decisions, and extreme horse trading would occur to determine who a Presidential candidate would be. Decisions about the cabinet would usually be part of these negotiations–meaning a President might be nominated with a lot of backroom deals and agreements already binding many of his most consequential decisions. “Propriety” barred Presidential candidates from directly campaigning for election, instead it was all done by surrogates, additionally the limited communications technology of the day limited the ability of a “strong personality” (think an FDR type) to establish any kind of true national following. Many times the men who would get the nomination would be only moderately known outside of their home state, and then the voters would vote largely on their party leanings (when this all happened under the aegis of the Democratic-Republican party, people voted based on the factions within that party they belonged to), so the President came to power with little recognition and limited “base” of support.

Juxtapose this with Congress, which the Constitution actually empowered as clearly the most powerful of the three branches in theory, and in the 19th century it mostly did operate as the most powerful branch. Leadership in Congress largely required years and years of experience in national politics, so the leaders in Congress were national figures, powerful within their party and known well throughout the country. So powerful figures like Henry Clay, who never won an election for President despite trying, was many times likely the most powerful man in the U.S. Government, almost a quasi-Prime Minister with the President being rendered into a state not dissimilar from a constitutional monarch.

So basically, until the latter 19th century, the “job” of President wasn’t as big as it is now, the powers of the Federal government were less, the “real” powers of Congress were much higher. However the President did have areas in which they wielded immense power, it’s just those powers weren’t always relevant to the time. To breakthrough this and be consequential you needed a President who was very political powerful, or who was running things during a power in which the Presidency’s constitutional powers were more relevant.

Lincoln is an obvious example–he was actually not that strong politically in his first years in office, often at odds with Congress and the Judiciary, but the constitution and its rules written and unwritten vest immense powers in the Presidency to quell insurrection and to conduct war, and that was the meat of Lincoln’s Presidency tied to the Civil War.

Jackson and Polk both kind of broke through because unlike their contempoaries (the van Burens and the Fillmore types), they had powerful political factions that were personally loyal to them, this tended to be unusual of Presidents in this time period, and possessing that made them forces within the government.

The first five or so Presidents largely get such high marks because there was a mixture of foreign policy, military and precedential activities going on, precedential meaning these guys were kind of fleshing out what the Presidency even was and how government would work. Most people have generally felt the first five Presidents aside from Adams did a good job at those things (Adams is oft considered one of our best Founding Fathers but not a particularly good President.)

And of course, Garfield never really got a chance to do much presidenting.

You can make a pretty strong case that Jackson was a great President. But that doesn’t change the fact that he was definitely a very bad President, in fact one of the worst. Great is not the same thing as good.

Being forgettable presidents may be to their credit, it may mean they were clever enough to keep everything running smoothly and head off any crises before they started

His dismantling of the Bank of the United States is one of the absolutely worst decisions ever made.

One thing the first six presidents did was not try to become dictators, president for life, etc. See how many anti-colonial leaders could not avoid that trap, including, for example, Toussaint L’Ouverture and Fidel Castro with all too many examples in between. You can argue that the most important thing Washington did as president was leave it. Nelson Mandela understood this, but not his successors. By the time, Jackson became president, the precedent had been established. The presidents from Jackson to Buchanan simply didn’t do enough to prevent the Civil War. Whether anyone could have is a moot point. They didn’t and their ranking reflects that.

The recent presidents benefit from name recognition and their rankings will sink. Agent Orange might even surpass Buchanan.

I admit the question in the OP may not have been clear. Here’s my attempt at clarification. I wasn’t so much asking what actions did the early presidents take that the later ones didn’t that made them better. The question is more why did the voters stop voting for enlightened (for their time)* people and start electing morally shitty people to the presidency? Hari, you mention Washington not declaring himself president / king / dictator / generalísimo / whatever for life. I agree that was a very important point in American history. Had he done so, successfully or not, the US would likely have never become a successful country. My guess is had Washington had the personality of someone like Jackson, Buchanan, or Trump, he likely would have made the attempt. The question, then, is why did Americans from that time change their minds about what kind of president they wanted?

  • Yes, I’m well aware that Washington and Jefferson owned slaves, and that is a big point against them. Despite that, the impression I get is that the first six were better human beings than the POTUSs from Jackson to Buchanan.

Well, look at who the voters were: Mostly property owning white men. Their fathers may have been caught up in the idealism of the age of revolution, but by the time the patriots of 1776 started dying off, voters became more interested in maintaining the status quo. Except for abolitionists (largely responsible for electing number one on the list), a new idealistic voting block wouldn’t come on the scene until after the Civil War with the increased influx of immigrants seeking the American dream.

My take on OP was more talking about “great” in the historical context. i.e. few people really contest Oliver Cromwell was a great military leader, since he won every significant battle he ever lead forces in. Or clearer yet Napoleon would fall in that same category. Both Cromwell / Napoleon were really shitty dudes on moral/ethical grounds, which fits the Jackson model to a tee. If we’re just ranking Presidents in terms of moral behavior it’s a frankly short list and heavily weighted to the last 75 years.