Do you think that could be a reference to Psalm 141?
Great question. I don’t know, but it’s entirely possible. It’s exactly the kind of thing they did - extropolating stories from OT scripture.
It’s a spurious rumor from a second-century source. If a Christian had cited such a source on the Dope in defense of the gospels, he would have been lambasted by our resident skeptics. Ah, but when a prurient claim is made against Christianity, all of a sudden, looser standards of evidence become acceptable.
“Ah, but it has to be an OUTSIDE source!” one might say. “It has to come from someone outside the church in order to avoid bias!” First of all, no credible historian would claim that only unbiased sources are acceptable as historical evidence; after all, people seldom wrote about matters in which they had no personal interest. Second, if one is going to insist on neutral sources, then that’s actually a good argument against accepting Celsus and his unsubstantiated claim; after all, Celsus was an outspoken critic of Christianity, and so he can hardly be considered unbiased.
Sage Rat, I think you’re overstating the significance of those passages. Mark 6 says nothing about Jesus being banned or even kicked out of his hometown. A stronger case can be made for Luke 4, but even then, it merely states that they threw him out of the city and tried to kill him. That’s pretty serious, but it’s not the same as declaring that he was “effectively banned from ever returning to his home town.”
That’s not what you claimed earlier though. Rather, you claimed that (a) he was a mystic, and (b) that this is how he chose to support himself financially. Stating that he was the leader of a church (or a “cult leader,” to use your terminology) is not the same thing.
JThunder is right about Celsus. He was fairly late, for one thing (2nd Century), and while a lot of what he says might have accurately reflected anti-Christian smears of the time, they can’t be relied on as having any particular historical reliability. The Panthera thing is just a little too cute to pass the smell test, and Celsus also made other claims which are even more suspect. He said that Jesus learned sorcery in Egypt, for instance. Celsus is not much of a credible source for historical Jesus and, at best, probably just represents a record of the kinds of Jewish slanders against Christianity that were current at the time.
- I pointed out that it was rumor.
- I stated the name of the author who wrote of the rumor, so people could check the date.
- So what do you think you’re debating with me? If you repeat information that I said back to me, do you think I’m going to marvel at your words?
Let me also note that you’re cherry picking. This is what denialists of global warming or the Armenian Holocaust do. Out of thirty pieces of evidence, they pick one which isn’t as good as all the others, trumpet it up, and ignore the other twenty-nine. I’m not resting anything on Celsus, nor does my point rely on Jesus’ parentage at all. It’s an intriguing question, but either way you flip the coin, he was brought up in a poor village with – probably – limited access to schooling. If you don’t like one side of the coin, well great for you, flip it to the other side, it doesn’t matter. You don’t trust that Celsus knew his head from his ass, that’s fine as well. Toss him aside. That’s not the only item on the table.
Just to elaborate… I don’t necessarily have a problem with second-century sources; after all, historians often use sources that were written fairly late after the fact. Rather, one has to consider the totality of the evidence as well as the reliability of the sources. In this case, we have multiple earlier sources, none of which stated (or even hinted) that Joseph kicked Mary out for adultery. At least one of these sources had no problem talking about the ridicule that Jesus experienced from his own friends or family (Mark 3) and another source stated that his brothers did not believe in his Messiahship (John 7:3-5) – yet there is no hint that Mary had been rejected by Joseph. Nor is there any hint of this from any other literature from that time.
The one argument that could be made in favor of Celsus is that he wasn’t biased toward Christianity – but if anything, that works against him as well, since he had a palpable bias against the church.
I’m pointing out that your source is not a reliable one. You specifically said, “It’s as good of information as we have from an early, outside source.” I’m pointing out that this information isn’t very good at all.
No, I’m not. There is simply no reason to believe what Celsus had to say on this matter.
And if you had thirty or so pieces of evidence in your favor, you would have a point. So where are these multiple sources of information?
Which is not relevant to the claim at hand. You said that Celsus was as good an outside source as any. He isn’t. Not by a long shot.
- Crosston is arguing “from Lenski’s theory of social structures in agrarian societies) that carpenters, as part of the Artisan Class (Lenski’s term), are lower in socioeconomic status than farmers/peasants.” That’s nice. But that’s an argument from a social theory. We have provided actual period translations and cites which show that tekton can mean many things :
wiki"Jesus is identified in Mark as a τεκτων (tekton)[49] and in Matthew as the son of a tekton.[50] Like most people at the time, he presumably was trained by his parent in the family trade. Tekton has been traditionally translated into English as “carpenter”, but is a rather general word (from the same root that gives us “technical” and “technology”) that at the time could cover makers of objects in various materials, and builders, from tent makers to stone masons.[51] The specific association with woodworking is a constant in Early Christian tradition; Justin Martyr (d. c. 165) wrote that Jesus made yokes and ploughs, and there are similar early references.[52] "
we also have New Deal Democrat with *“While ‘tekton’ is usually said to mean carpenter, it more accurately means master builder or architect. As an architect, Joseph would have had a higher social status that enabled him to better educate his son,” Bradford said. *
**Captain Amazing **with Just as a note, in Greek, tekton referred to craftsmen all up and down the economic scale, from piecework laborers to master shipbuilders, carpenters, and masons. You can’t drive social class from the term.
I also cited three more sources:
*the text of the Gospels say only tekton, which can be read in the broad sense as “builder of houses…” (Craveri, 1967, p. 6)
“It [the word tekton] certainly did not identify Jesus and Joseph as woodworkers. More precisely it defined them as men with skills - learned men, who were masters of what they did.” (Gardner, 2001, p. 27)
"It [tekton] can refer to a worker in wood, or in stone. I agree that this likely means Jesus and his family used both sorts of materials to build houses, since stones were the normal main material used to construct a house in Galilee. (Witherington, 2006, http://benwitherington.blogspot.com)
“In the Gospels…a tekton [is] a Greek word that meant not merely a carpenter skilled in making cabinets or furniture but a designer, construction engineer, or architect. A tekton could build a house, construct a bridge, or design a temple.” (Starbird, 2003, p. 53)
THE REALITY
The common conception of Joseph is that he was a carpenter (Matthew 13:55), however, this is a mis-translation of the Greek word, tecton (tekton), which more accurately should be called “general contractor”, or more provocatively, “Master of the Craft” (Gardner, 2001). In fact, the Protoevangelium of James, [1] which concerns the lives of Jesus’ parents, specifically identifies Joseph as a general contractor. The Blueletter Bible offers various translations of tekton - (1) a worker in wood, a carpenter, joiner, builder, (2) any craftsman, or workman (e.g., the art of poetry, maker of songs), and (3) a planner, contriver, plotter, or (4) an author.*
*“In classical Greek, the primary (and original) meaning of τέκτων was carpenter or wood-worker, but depending on the writer & period it could also mean mason, metal-worker, sculptor, or a craftsman in any art, e.g. τέκτονες σοφοὶ (“wise craftsmen, craftsmen of wisdom”) to refer to poets. *”
"In Classical Greek the word means: one who works with the wood, carpenter, craftsman, creator, builder. For instance Jesus was a tekton in profession, according to the New Testament. Relative is the word τέχνη (techni=art). In Modern Greek it usually refers to the member of masonry (mason means builder) and it is also used in some other words as a derivative (ex. architekton=architect).
"
However, I can’t find where even Crosson used the term "day laborer’ . A theory of social structure does not equate the reality of the term.
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It is odd that your “scholarly consensus” always coincides with your personal opinion and theories. Even when the rest of us gives you cite after cite after cite, somehow your uncited scholarly consensus always seems to echo what you say. :dubious:
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Your personal agenda is clear and obvious. And, we have cited wikipedia and quite a few other sources, of which maybe one could be considered “Christian apologist websites”. Is Wiki now a Christian apologist website?
And, I am not a believer, nor a Christian. In fact, I was a member of CSICOP for years. I find the miracles in the NT doubtful (except for as far as we know “faith healing” can sometimes “cure”, etc).
Not true:
wiki: "
*In 2009 Israeli archaeologist Yardenna Alexandre excavated archaeological remains in Nazareth that might date to the time of Jesus in the early Roman period. Alexandre told reporters, “The discovery is of the utmost importance since it reveals for the very first time a house from the Jewish village of Nazareth.”[30]
According to the Israel Antiquities Authority, “The artifacts recovered from inside the building were few and mostly included fragments of pottery vessels from the Early Roman period (the first and second centuries AD)… Another hewn pit, whose entrance was apparently camouflaged, was excavated and a few pottery sherds from the Early Roman period were found inside it.” Alexandre adds that “based on other excavations that I conducted in other villages in the region, this pit was probably hewn as part of the preparations by the Jews to protect themselves during the Great Revolt against the Romans in 67 AD”.[31]
Ancient Nazareth may have built on the hillside, as indicated in the Gospel of Luke: [And they led Jesus] to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw him down headlong.[Lk. 4:29] However, the hill in question (the Nebi Sa’in) is far too steep for ancient dwellings and averages a 14% grade in the venerated area.[32] * and "* Princeton University archaeologist Jack Finegan describes additional archaeological evidence related to settlement in the Nazareth basin during the Bronze and Iron Ages, and states that “Nazareth was a strongly Jewish settlement in the Roman period.”.[43]
In the mid-1990s, shopkeeper Elias Shama discovered tunnels under his shop near Mary’s Well in Nazareth. The tunnels were eventually recognized as a hypocaust (a space below the floor into which warm air was pumped) for a bathhouse. The surrounding site was excavated in 1997-98 by Yardena Alexandre, and the archaeological remains exposed were ascertained to date from the Roman, Crusader, Mamluk and Ottoman periods.[44][45][46][47]*
However, just two miles away is the ancient site of Kfar HaHoresh, which has diggings going back to 9000 years ago. There are some pretty steep hills around there.
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None of your cites contradict me (New Deal Democrat simply makes a bald assertion which is backed up by nothing.
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I used the phrase, “day laboror” as an analogy not as a definition.
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If I have a personal agenda, perhaps you could enlighten me as to what it is?
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I rarely insert personal opinions into these kinds of discussions, I merely reiterate the scholarship. If I do assert a personal opinion, I label it as such. It is not my opinion that the overwhelming consensus of modern scholarship is that none of the authorship traditions of the Canonical Gospels are authentic. That is a fact. I can go in excruciating detail as to why. I’ve done it before.
all of that stuff is 2nd century or later. Nothing from the 1st century has been discovered at Nazareth. The hill they mention is not part of Nazareth.
So what? Kfar HaHoreth isn’t Nazareth. There was no cliff in Nazareth.
- They all do:
wiki"Jesus is identified in Mark as a τεκτων (tekton)[49] and in Matthew as the son of a tekton.[50] Like most people at the time, he presumably was trained by his parent in the family trade. Tekton has been traditionally translated into English as “carpenter”, but is a rather general word (from the same root that gives us “technical” and “technology”) that at the time could cover makers of objects in various materials, and builders, from tent makers to stone masons.[51] The specific association with woodworking is a constant in Early Christian tradition; Justin Martyr (d. c. 165) wrote that Jesus made yokes and ploughs, and there are similar early references.[52] "
NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO DAY LABORER.
we also have **New Deal Democrat **with “While ‘tekton’ is usually said to mean carpenter, it more accurately means master builder or architect. As an architect, Joseph would have had a higher social status that enabled him to better educate his son,” Bradford said.
NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO DAY LABORER. And, **New Deal Democrat **cites “Bradford”.
Captain Amazing with Just as a note, in Greek, tekton referred to craftsmen all up and down the economic scale, from piecework laborers to master shipbuilders, carpenters, and masons. You can’t drive social class from the term.
I also cited three more sources:
http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=5
the text of the Gospels say only tekton, which can be read in the broad sense as “builder of houses…” (Craveri, 1967, p. 6)
NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO DAY LABORER.
“It [the word tekton] certainly did not identify Jesus and Joseph as woodworkers. More precisely it defined them as men with skills - learned men, who were masters of what they did.” (Gardner, 2001, p. 27)
NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO DAY LABORER.
"It [tekton] can refer to a worker in wood, or in stone. I agree that this likely means Jesus and his family used both sorts of materials to build houses, since stones were the normal main material used to construct a house in Galilee. (Witherington, 2006, http://benwitherington.blogspot.com)
**
NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO DAY LABORER.**
“In the Gospels…a tekton [is] a Greek word that meant not merely a carpenter skilled in making cabinets or furniture but a designer, construction engineer, or architect. A tekton could build a house, construct a bridge, or design a temple.” (Starbird, 2003, p. 53)
NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO DAY LABORER.
THE REALITY
The common conception of Joseph is that he was a carpenter (Matthew 13:55), however, this is a mis-translation of the Greek word, tecton (tekton), which more accurately should be called “general contractor”, or more provocatively, “Master of the Craft” (Gardner, 2001). In fact, the Protoevangelium of James, [1] which concerns the lives of Jesus’ parents, specifically identifies Joseph as a general contractor. The Blueletter Bible offers various translations of tekton - (1) a worker in wood, a carpenter, joiner, builder, (2) any craftsman, or workman (e.g., the art of poetry, maker of songs), and (3) a planner, contriver, plotter, or (4) an author.
"In classical Greek, the primary (and original) meaning of τέκτων was carpenter or wood-worker, but depending on the writer & period it could also mean mason, metal-worker, sculptor, or a craftsman in any art, e.g. τέκτονες σοφοὶ (“wise craftsmen, craftsmen of wisdom”) to refer to poets. "
"In Classical Greek the word means: one who works with the wood, carpenter, craftsman, creator, builder. For instance Jesus was a tekton in profession, according to the New Testament. Relative is the word τέχνη (techni=art). In Modern Greek it usually refers to the member of masonry (mason means builder) and it is also used in some other words as a derivative (ex. architekton=architect).
"
NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO DAY LABORER.
And for you to say that New Deal Democrat "simply makes a bald assertion which is backed up by nothing" is hypocritical hubris in the extreme, becuase that is exactly what you have done here in this thread. You have exactly ZERO links or quotes from cites. Every single post you have made here is a “bald assertion which is backed up by nothing”
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You are a diehard devout atheist. You even run a atheist website, according to you.
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You state you are “reiterating the scholarship” but in fact you are simply making bald assertions which are back up by nothing. Your
Let me bold those sections for you: "In 2009 Israeli archaeologist Yardenna Alexandre excavated archaeological remains in Nazareth that might date to the time of Jesus in the early Roman period. Alexandre told reporters, “The discovery is of the utmost importance since it reveals for the very first time a house from the Jewish village of Nazareth.”[30]
According to the Israel Antiquities Authority, “The artifacts recovered from inside the building were few and mostly included fragments of pottery vessels from the **Early Roman period (the first and second centuries AD)… Another hewn pit, whose entrance was apparently camouflaged, was excavated and a few pottery sherds from the Early Roman period **were found inside it.” Alexandre adds that “based on other excavations that I conducted in other villages in the region, this pit was probably hewn as part of the preparations by the Jews to protect themselves during the Great Revolt against the Romans in 67 AD”.[31]
Wrong again.
I repeat, none of that shit is from the 1st Century. Sorry. “Roman Period” is not confined to the 1st Century, and so far, nothing in the currently identified site of Nazareth dates before the 2nd Century. If you disagree, please name something that has been specifically dated to the 1st Century (and not just to the weasely “Roman period”). I don’t know or really have an opinion about whether the site is authentic, but it’s a fact that no conclusive proof has been found that there was any village there before the 2nd Century.
Also, tektons in rural Galilee were very much analagous to day laborors. That’s what they did. Joesph was not some kind of master bulder or architect living in a tiny little shanty town in rural. Bumfuck, Galilee.
"time of Jesus " and “**the first **and second centuries AD” and "at Revolt against the Romans in 67 AD".
"Yardenna Alexandre, who directed a dig near the church, said it exposed the walls of a first-century house that consisted of two rooms and a courtyard. " Bolded for you** first-century house **
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34511072/ns/technology_and_science-science/
NAZARETH, Israel — Days before Christmas, archaeologists on Monday unveiled what they said were the remains of the first dwelling in Nazareth that can be dated back to the time of Jesus…The shards also date back to the time of Jesus, which includes the late Hellenic, early Roman period that ranges from around 100 B.C. to A.D. 100, Alexandre said. The determination was made by comparing the findings to shards and remains found in other parts of the Galilee typical of that period, she said.
nothing at the site dates back to the time of Jesus. Those guys are full of shit.
Rene Salm? You trot out Rene Salm?:eek: It is to laff. His book was published by **American Atheist Press **:dubious:
From the backcover of that book:
*I am amazed by your work and can’t wait to see the pathetic attempts to reply! – Robert M. Price, PhD, ThD, Author, The Pre-Nicene New Testament, Deconstructing Jesus, Jesus Is Dead, etc. Christianity cannot survive unless this book can be refuted. By proving scientifically that Nazareth was uninhabited at the time Jesus of Nazareth and his family were supposed to be living there, Salm strikes the Achilles’ heel of a very popular god. We KNOW the Wizard of Oz is not real, since we know there never was a Land of Oz. Because of this exhaustive archaeological investigation, we now know that Jesus of Nazareth also is a literary fiction. Apologists and all other professional Christians are going to be out of work unless they can disprove this book – or find a way to suppress it. – Frank R. Zindler, Author, The Jesus the Jews Never Knew --Back cover *
Dr Ken Dark wrote an exhaustive critique of Salms book.
More or less, this well known aknowledged expert in the field calls Salm a ill-informed and illogical crank . Salm has exactly zero academic credentials and has never written a single peer reviewed journal.
Dr Dark has 6 well recieved books and dozens of peer reviewed academic papers.
"He is a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of London and an elected member of the Royal Institute of International Affairs."
And you trot out Salm, a complete nobody, who could only get **American Atheist Press ** to publish his book, and whos only Amazon review is by his friend. :rolleyes:jeeezus.
(no wonder you almost never come up with a cite, when you do they make your argument worse every time)
I see. No scholarship is legitimate unless the scholar believes in magic fairies.
Salm is not a “scholar”.
Dr Ken Dark is a scholar. Nor does he beleive in magic fairies.
But fairies or no, unless you can get a legit academic press or journal to peer review and print your article, you’re just a author. Degrees, academic qualifcations and honours also mean a lot, but are not required.