Why didn't the media care too much about Roger Clemens' 4000 Ks?

I’m not from Boston, obviously, but my understanding is that he was run out of town by Duquette (who said he was finished). And he was TRADED from Toronto to NY, so it strikes me as hard to blame him for that one. :stuck_out_tongue:

Too much credit? He may be a jerk, but he just achieved two of the most outstanding marks any pitcher can reach. He’s 21st on the all-time wins list, and by the end of the year I think he’ll be around #15. In fact, he’ll probably be the second-winningest pitcher in AL history. And he’s #3 in strikeouts. Jerk though he is, it strikes me as hard to give him too much credit for his accomplishments. I don’t see anybody saying we shouldn’t give Ty Cobb too much credit because he was a bigger jerk than Clemens ever was, and an avowed racist to boot.

Because news for the past month or so, in baseball, has been the following things:

  1. Clemens’ 300th win

  2. Sosa’s corked bat

  3. Triple Crown candidates (filler, at this point)

  4. The Tigers Suck

  5. So Do the Mets, But It’s Injuries For Them

  6. The All-Star Game as a determinant for home-field in the WS

  7. Web Gems/Touch 'em All

  8. Joe Torre Out As Manager?

  9. Random other filler stuff. Hey, I can’t memorize everything Harold Reynolds informs Bobby Valentine about;)

Marley23 you are right. My “if you know baseball” comment was off-base, heh. My point should have been more about how Clemens has always thrown inside and has often hit batters that have had success against him. The beaner on Piazza was meant to be inside and high, but maybe not intended to hit him. Man, as a Yankee fan, Clemens makes me work.

Like I said, 300 and 4000 are incredible achievements. I just wish someone I root for did it, like Guidry or Catfish or Stottlemyre or Wells or Cone or Jimmy Freaking Key.

Anyway, tip the hat to the first ballot Hall-of-Famer.

That I can buy. I don’t know about his track record in that much depth, but I’m sure he wanted to spin him around and try to get him away from the plate. No matter how much of a jerk Clemens is and how hard-nosed he is, I have trouble buying him as too dumb to realize throwing a ball that’s hard as a rock close to 100 miles per hour at someone’s skull is playing with death.
Heck, chin music used to be very normal way back when. Hitters just get closer to the plate these days, don’t they? I have trouble believing Clemens is worse than a Bob Gibson or a Dock Ellis, for example. None of that’s really a defense, I’m just trying to look at it in context. This used to be part of the game, for better or (given how dangerous a fastball is) worse.

He was only traded from Toronto to NY because he demanded the trade, so yes, it is quite possible to blame him for that one.

I agree with this. Clemens may very well be the greatest pitcher since World War II, with only maybe Seaver or Gibson as competition. He is a jerk, and most of the country DOES hate him (as would NYers if he wasn’t playing for the Yanks), but he IS a great pitcher and he fully deserves all the accolades he’s received. Except that last Cy Young. He didn’t deserve that. I’m sorry, but if you aren’t top 5 in ERA, you shouldn’t be in the running.

By the way, those who don’t think he’s a jerk, check out this piece at ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0615/1568234.html

Aw, poor baby! Poor babyyyyyyyy!!! Awwwwww…

Athletes can be such whiners. :slight_smile:

Meh. Doesn’t make much sense that the Hall chooses what cap the players wear. But you know he’ll go anyway. This is a threat I can’t see him following through on.

True,Stewart outpitched him. But Dave’s pitching in a car w/ a transvestite in downtown LA is probably why the Dodgers traded him to Oakland for that lousy lefty-forget his name. Rick?

It’s better than the alternative of letting some players decide. Should Wade Boggs go into the Hall of Fame as a Tampa Bay Devil Ray?

Clemens is 9-6 career in the postseason with a good ERA. He may be a jerk and a gasbag - and his recent bitching about the Hall of Fame proves to me he’s a colossal asshole - but he isn’t a choker.

And frankly, you can’t blame him for leaving Boston. He was run out of town by a bitter GM, and playing for the Red Sox would break anyone’s spirit. You can understand Clemens wanting to get out of Boston so he could win a World Series.

Clemens was a player approaching the end of his career and he wanted a WS ring to go along with all his other accolades, so he went to the team he felt gave him the best chance to accomplish that. Toronto wasn’t going to revamp itself into a contender, even with Clemens anchoring the pitching staff. Should an elite player stay with a team just because that’s where he is now? Or perhaps he should not try to get the most $$ for purely altruistic purposes?

As for the HoF/hat controversy, I hope he does sit out if they force him to where a hat he doesn’t want to. If his departure from Boston was as acrimonious as I’m led to believe, I support his wish not to be forever associated with the Red Sox. However, considering his accomplishments while wearing Yankee pinstripes, unless the HoF committee are total asses, I can’t see Clemens not getting what he wants.

How about sticking with the team that signed you to the amount of money you wanted. If he wanted to win that badly, he shouldn’t have signed the contract he did with Toronto. He knew their situation, but he took the money because he didn’t care about winning. Then when he re-established himself as a good pitcher after his downright average last few years in Boston, made a stink until he was traded where he wanted. It shows how little character the man has, and what a jerk he is.
**

It’s their museum, they get to pick where he stays. He spent most of his career with the Red Sox, he got most of his wins with the Red Sox, he won three Cy Youngs with the Red Sox, he did the whole 20 strikeout thing twice with the Red Sox, he won his sole MVP award with the Red Sox. His time with the Red Sox is what established him as one of the game’s premier pitchers and he should go on with a Red Sox cap on.

Too bad if he doesn’t get to go in with the hat he wants. He should just be a man like Gary Carter.

I think the Dodgers traded Stewart to Texas for Rick Honeycutt in '83. Stewart had a brief stint in Philly before making his way to Oakland. He was on his way out of the Majors until he inexplicably turned his career around in Oakland. And I don’t think you can blame the Red Sox for giving up on Clemens, much like you can’t blame the Rangers for giving up on Stewart. They had each shown signs of breaking down (metally and physically) and their dramatic turn arounds were not anticipated by even the most knowledgable baseball minds.

Check out these Bill Simmons articles the difinitive Red Sox fan point of view on why Clemens is jerk:Is Roger Clemens really the Antichrist? and Rocket failure: I love it.

I’'m no Red Sox fan, but I’ve always thought he was a jerk. I was hoping he would be stuck on 299 for at least until the All-Star break.

I hope he doesn’t show up. Who wants to hear him ramble for hours about how wonderful he is? At least with some athletes, you know they’re going to be gracious to all the people who helped them be who they were in baseball. Most HoFers have dignity and class.

Yeah, those 257 strikeouts, 242 innings pitched and 3.64 ERA in 1996, his last year in Boston, sure were a sign of slipping. It may have been a shock to see him improve as much as he did, but by no means does 257 SO, 200+ IP and a sub-4.00 ERA qualify as entering the “twilight of his career.” Anyone with half a brain should have known he would be an above average pitcher for several more years, and most people did realize this. That’s why Toronto signed him. Boston ridiculously lowballed him and insulted him to the point of acrimoniousness.

Duquette screwed up big time.

I didn’t say he was in the twilight, but he had shown to be injury prone, a bit of a head case, and not reliable in big games. Clemens obviously didn’t want to stay in Boston and Duquette would have had to drastically overpay to keep him (much more than would normally be required for someone expected to be “an above average picher for several more years”). But three more Cy Youngs? Another 100+ wins? Keeping his ERA around 4.00 while ERAs inflated throughout the Majors? No way that could have been predicted. Clemens has proven to be a Ryanesque freak of nature.

And let’s say Duquette did overpay to re-sign Clemens after the '96 season. Would Clemens have been as successful without the motivation provided by being snubbed (which I feel was brought on by Clemens anyway)? Of course we’ll never know, but don’t think he would have.

It’s easy to use hindsight and say Duquette screwed up big time, but at the time, I wouldn’t have re-signed him either. Of course if I were the GM for another team (like Toronto) I would have signed him in a heartbeat. Head case or no, the guy could put asses in the seats.

Pash

Dave Stewart’s career took off when he joined the A’s and learned how to throw a forkball.

I think Clemens did mean to throw at Piazza’s head. Piazza had hit Clemens well in past meetings, and Clemens wanted to intimidate him. Clemens obviously had issues with Piazza, as evidenced not only by the beanball but by throwing the broken piece of Piazza’s bat at Piazza in the 2000 World Series.

(I should note that I am a Mets fan, but I am hardly a Yankees hater, as two of my favorite ballplayers over the past 10 years were ex-Yanks Paul O’Neill and David Cone)

Perhaps it can be attributed to youthful bravado, but after Clemens won the MVP in 1986 and Hank Aaron said that pitchers shouldn’t win the MVP, Clemens said he wished Aaron was still playing, as “I’d probably crack his head open to show him how valuable I was.

As for his playoff record, Clemens is only a .500 pitcher. He does have a respectable 3.46 ERA in the playoffs, only 0.29 over his regular season ERA, when he was pitching against both the best and worst teams in the league. Clemens’s playoff record prior to joining the Yankees was a mixed bag, as he had some good starts, but is probably most remembered for his ALCS 1990 start against the A’s when he got kicked out of the game in the second inning for mouthing off to the ump. On the other hand, Clemens has a great World Series ERA (1.56).

From '93 to '96, Clemens went 40-39, an average of roughly 10-10 per season. This was due to injuries, poor run support, and at times, just poor pitching. Given this four-year rut, I can understand the Red Sox not wanting to outbid the Blue Jays, who signed Clemens to a four-year, $40M contract.

According to the previously cited Baseball Library cite, Clemens exercised a trade clause in 1998, then withdrew it. The Yankees ended up trading for Clemens anyway, mainly because Steinbrenner had a Chad Curtis-esque fixation on the Rocket.

Clemens truly deserves the Hall of Fame, as he has been one of the best pitchers in baseball over the past 50 years (although one ESPN columnist ranked Mets pitcher Tom Seaver over Clemens as the best over the past 50 years… sorry, I couldn’t resist :wink: ). He has 4000+ strikeouts. He has won 300 games, a feat especially difficult to attain considering that most 300 game winners didn’t pitch in a 5-man rotation. He has won more Cy Young awards than any other pitcher. He has struck out 20 batters in a game twice. There is no doubt about his Hall of Fame credentials.

There is also no doubt about where he made his mark as a Hall of Fame pitcher. Clemens won 3 of his 6 Cy Young awards with the Red Sox. He won his MVP award with the Red Sox. His 2 20-strikeout games came as a Red Sox. Of his 300 wins, nearly 2/3 (192) were won with the Red Sox. While Clemens wouldn’t have made the Hall of Fame solely with his Red Sox years, those Red Sox years, more than those with the Blue Jays and Yankees, are what make him a Hall of Famer.

The Baseball Hall of Fame determines what cap is worn by determining which team the player made his mark as a Hall of Famer. What standard would the players use? An end of the career contract provision? Some bad blood with a former team? It’s not Clemens’s Hall of Fame; it’s the Baseball Hall of Fame. If they decide that Clemens should go as a Red Sox, that’s their choice. Given Clemens numbers for the Red Sox, it’s the right choice.

As for the strikeout mark versus the win mark: I consider the win mark to be more important, as it more accurately shows a pitcher’s success (although I recognize a great pitcher without run support will not get as many wins as one with good run support). As already mentioned, strikeout king Nolan Ryan was a great pitcher, but despite being a Hall of Famer few would rank him among the greatest pitchers ever, whereas Clemens would be due to his win total and win percentage, or even more, due to his 6 seasons as the recognized best pitcher in his league. Ryan’s 6 no-hitters are very impressive, but Clemens’s 6 Cy Young awards are much more impressive.

This is probably heading into GD territory, but if the HoF is so concerned about a Boggs/Tampa Bay type issue, it seems that the obvious solution is to let the writers who select the players also select the team.

There doesn’t appear to be one, really. It’s whoever they feel is right.

Well, not really. :wink:

I heard some interesting debate on the subject. Basically it was argued that Clemens choice as a Yankee would at least make some sense, given the good results (by year’s end, it’ll be around 75 wins) and milestones he reached with them (2 WS wins, 300th win, 4000th K).
The idea was “within reason, perhaps the player should choose.” Boggs and the Devil Rays would not be within reason, as he gave them only two not-so-special years. Ryan and the Rangers might be. And - and I certainly agree with this bit - they have to make sure money and the contract issue does NOT impact the process.

Marley, what do you mean by “not really”? It’s not really the Baseball Hall of Fame?

If he wants to go in as a Yankee, he has plenty of cash to begin the Roger Clemens Museum and Hall o’ Fame, in which every photo, bust, and plaque of Roger is in a Yankee uniform.

He’s a habitual ass.