Why do a lot, if not almost all, of mens' rights type folk seem to be anti woman?

[blindboyard]

@even_sven

Well, I think that camp is motivated by misogyny as well. This isn’t the thread to hash it out in, but I’m fairly certain a small percent of pro-life sentiment is about saving the precious zygotes, and a large percent is about punishing the sluts.

Der Trihs frequently posts his idea that pro-lifers just hate women, but I’ve seen no evidence for it. You might as well say pro-choicers hate babies, or hate black people.

But let’s say you’re right. If misogynists who only want to punish sluts will still allow rape victims to have abortions, what does that say about those who would force male rape victims to pay child support to their rapists?

Men have the choice to use birth control. Men have the choice to use a back method. Birth control is equally effective for both men and women- using it prevents pregnancy with a very small failure rate. Men have the choice to sleep with women who have similar views on parenthood and abortion as them. Men have every chance in the world not to make unwanted babies, and it’s hard to believe they are fighting for their legitimate rights rather than fighting for the right to get it on without a condom and then abandon their babies afterwards.

Well if we’re going for the unthinking acceptance of gender norms we might as well say it’s hard to accept women are wanting something legitimate rather than just hanging on to their own reproductive rights while also wanting to be able to pretend to be on the pill and then commandeer an unwilling man’s income to support their choices.

In any case, we’ve hashed this out a million times, and the answer is that your point of view doesn’t work. I am yet to get an explanation for why this agreement has to be done after the sex, rather than before the sex. I am 100% for any couple who wants to make a pre-coital contract that any baby that comes out of the act is the full responsibility of a designated partner. But for some reason, guys are always arguing that they couldn’t possibly reveal to their partner they have no intention of raising their children before they get laid, and they absolutely need to wait to make that decision clear until after they’ve blown their wad.

If the pair in question want to do a deal before sex, I’m fine with that. But under the law as it stands that law would be unenforceable. I was just reading about a lesbian couple in Kentucky suing for child support from a sperm donor, and there’s certainly precedent for that.

Even so, in the case of a one-night stand I don’t expect anyone to interrupt the passion and suchlike to engage in contractual negotiations. Maybe a condom breaks (statistically insignificant becomes extremely significant given how many condoms get used), maybe she forgot her pill, maybe she lied about being on the pill, maybe they were just feeling like taking a risk. Maybe she rapes him, for that matter, but she ends up impregnated. Well, when they’re done she can take a morning after pill, or she can wait and get an abortion, or whatever. He, on the other hand, just has to hope she’s not pregnant, and if she is then she gets to decide if he’s going to be a father, or not a father, or a father only insofar as he has a legal obligation to give her money.

So if you want him to be responsible for half the cost of the morning after pill, then fine. Otherwise it’s her making a choice to continue with the pregnancy.

No, you are talking bullshit. If you were genuine, you would mention how many of these cases are contested, and how often mothers are given custody because the fathers are not interested in having it. Without that information, your statistics are legally meaningless. You’ll also need to account for situations where custody is contested primarily for harassment rather than a genuine desire to take care of the child. In other words, how often are men who are capable and interested in having custody of their child being denied? That’s the only question and statistic that matters to your point. I’d argue that it is relatively few.

Your “argument” is an assumption that men only care about children when they can use them to harrass women, as your argument further up was that men only want reproductive rights so they can have unprotected sex without consequence.

You were talking about all the places where there’s default joint custody and how child support was rare and so on, and you were wrong. Now your argument is that it might look bad for men, but it really isn’t, and still with evidence at all beyond your insulting notions about men.

Also, for the record, who files a divorce has relatively little to do with who caused it. Plenty of cheating philanderers would be completely happy to spend years having fun with their lover while their spouse waits at home and does all the hard work in the marriage. Plenty of abusive spouses are perfectly content with their marriage and would happily go on beating their spouse until they are both old and grey.

Talking against about the UK, the last figures I can find show that among petitioners for divorce, from back when you had to give a reason, that women were more likely to claim every reason, being so much more likely to file for divorce, but only very slightly more likely to claim adultery. Adultery is the most common reason for men to apply for divorce, though, while an irretrievable breakdown in marital relations due to unreasonable behaviour is easily the most common overall, being the only way to get a quick divorce where adultery can’t be shown.

[Larry_Borgia]

Man the ability of petulant whiny men to convince themselves they are being oppressed by a vast female conspiracy never ceases to amaze.

We’ve got the long end of the stick, guys. Shut the fuck up and be gracious about it.

[Slithy_Tove]

…and for God’s sakes don’t ever play lacrosse for Duke.

[Mijin]

Yeah! We have it so good, we can even discuss legitimate issues without being accused of whining!

[blindboyard]

@Larry_Borgia

Man the ability of petulant whiny men to convince themselves they are being oppressed by a vast female conspiracy never ceases to amaze.

We’ve got the long end of the stick, guys. Shut the fuck up and be gracious about it.

It is great being male. You get, in many countries at least, circumcised without pain-killers long beforeyou can even walk, you parents react less urgently when you cry, you’re more likely to be physically abused, neglected or corporally punished, you’re more likely to develop learning disabilities, you’ll get more negative attention in class, you’ll get lower grade based entirely on your sex, you’ll be more likely to drop out of school, less likely to go to university, less likely to go into the law or medicine or other lucrative lines of work, and far more likely to die or be injured at work, you’ll be far more likely to be homeless, more likely to be unemployed, more likely to commit suicide, more likely to be a victim of every type of violent crime by every category of offender, but specially provided buses, trains and the like will be laid on only to provide safe travel for women and you won’t be taken seriously if you’re raped, you’ll get longer sentences for committing the same crime and those who offend against you will receive lesser sentences, you’ll be open to constant sexual and social defamation, when you get involved with women you’ll be expected to approach the woman and pay for her on romantic occasions even though among the unmarried women get paid more, and if you knock one up she will have sole choice over whether you become a father, or a source of money for her, or neither and this will be true even if she raped you, and you will be expected to pay for your own contraception while hers is provided gratis, if you get married you’re many time more likely to be dumped than to seek divorce yourself and will then be blamed, you have a good chance of quickly losing all contact with any children produced in the marriage but will be imprisoned if you fail to pay support as ordered by the court, you will be just as likely to be beaten by your spouse but will more often than not be explicitly excluded from government funded services for victims, and should you call the police may well be arrested despite being the victim because of sexist domestic violence policing policies, and having been divorced the social pressure you were placed under to work on your wife’s behalf during marriage will be used as an excuse to order you to continue providing for her after marriage, relatively little money will be spent on your health so you will be more likely to die from a host of medical conditions, special research will be conducted into diseases only effecting women while those that kill similar numbers of men will be ignored, and you will be more likely to die from all common cancers that effect both sexes, and if you survive long enough you’ll find that you’re expected to work several years longer before retiring despite being expected to die several years earlier. And of course you’ll be told to man up and stop whining whenever you complain about any of those things, and then perhaps be lectured about “rape culture” of the “pay gap” or some similar rubbish.

I hope all that bragging wasn’t ingracious.

[DiosaBellissima]

@blindboyard

It is great being male. You get, in many countries at least, circumcised without pain-killers long beforeyou can even walk,

Women too, although most get circumcised when they are old enough to remember it.

@blindboyard

you’ll get more negative attention in class,

Cite?

@blindboyard

you’ll get lower grade based entirely on your sex,

Cite?

@blindboyard

less likely to go to university,

Cite?

@blindboyard

less likely to go into the law or medicine or other lucrative lines of work,

Cite?

@blindboyard

you’ll be open to constant sexual and social defamation,

Cite?

@blindboyard

when you get involved with women you’ll be expected to approach the woman and pay for her on romantic occasions even though among the unmarried women get paid more,

Cite and cite? (Btdubs: not all women expect you to do those things)

@blindboyard

and if you knock one up she will have sole choice over whether you become a father,

Cite that condoms and spermicide don’t work, please?

@blindboyard

and you will be expected to pay for your own contraception while hers is provided gratis,

Cite? I did get free birth control for most of my teen years through California’s Family PACT program, but men are equally as able to access that program as I am.

@blindboyard

if you get married you’re many time more likely to be dumped than to seek divorce yourself and will then be blamed,

Cite?

@blindboyard

you have a good chance of quickly losing all contact with any children produced in the marriage

Cite?

@blindboyard

you will be just as likely to be beaten by your spouse

Cite?

@blindboyard

and having been divorced the social pressure you were placed under to work on your wife’s behalf during marriage will be used as an excuse to order you to continue providing for her after marriage,

Cite on alimony only being paid toward women?

@blindboyard

relatively little money will be spent on your health so you will be more likely to die from a host of medical conditions,

Cite?

@blindboyard

special research will be conducted into diseases only effecting women

Cite?

[Ibn_Warraq]

Quote:
Originally Posted by blindboyard
special research will be conducted into diseases only effecting women

Er… So then you object to research being done regarding prostrate cancer?:dubious:
Please explain why we shouldn’t do research on it.

[blindboyard]

@DiosaBellissima

Women too, although most get circumcised when they are old enough to remember it.

The difference is that FGM is banned in all civilised countries, has international efforts to wipe it out and is only really practiced in remote parts of east Africa, while male circumcision is readily accepted in the west, is pushed by two of the world’s major religions and is also endemic in the USA and is also being pushed by the UN and WHO as a preventative measure for HIV based on pseudoscience.

True, FGM might be qualitatively worse, but having seen a video of a circumcision on youtube, the medical staff, and the knife, and the screaming terrified infant, I’m still pretty outraged.

Cite?

That’s for negative attention to boys in class, see here.

Cite?

Lower grade based on sex, okay. See one of the many stories based on the same study, like this one. Or this article on impact.

Cite?

Seriously, you don’t know girls are more likely to go to university? I mean, it’s only been the case for about 25 years,and the ratio is only about 3:2, I can see how you might have missed it. Actually, it’s only about 55% female at enrollment, more at graduation. Just go look at wikipedia, more women in America go to college, of whom a larger proportion graduate, there are more women than men with degrees and master’s degrees. It’s like asking for a cite that black people are less likely to go to uni (although according to this graph black women are nearly as likely as white men to go).

Cite?

Women make up 60% of new lawyers, and while I can find complaining that they don’t get paid more, and complaining that there isn’t enough social mobility in the legal profession (ie too many middle class new lawyers) and such like, I see no complaints as to there being too many women, or rather not enough men. Googling female young doctors just brings up a story about 80% of new doctors in Gloucestershire being female, and a load of stories about an Austrlian soap opera, and I’m not invested enough in this discussion to go further.

Cite?

That’s an experience thing.

Cite and cite? (Btdubs: not all women expect you to do those things)

Completely true and completely irrelevant. The question isn’t whether all women are the same, it’s whether society has a certain set of standard expectations. I’m not arguing that no men go to university, or that no women in the west suffer FGM, because none of that’s relevant. I’m saying the education system at present militates against male achievement, I’m saying the western attitude to FGM should be extended to the male equivalent, I’m saying that for most romantic relationships the man is expected to initiate and to assume the role of provider. Just a couple of weeks ago I heard one of my female friends told off by another woman for asking a man out, so I no not all women expect it, but I also know it’s still the cultural norm, and an unnecessarily burdensome one.

Cite that condoms and spermicide don’t work, please?

They certainly don’t work when you’ve knocked someone up, which is the specific scenario I had posited. I’m afraid I don’t have a cite for that, though.

I could give you a cite for cases where women have sabotaged condoms, and where women have raped men, and where women have “raped” (statutory) men and obviously vastly more where condoms have broken or otherwise failed.

So you see, my point isn’t that condoms don’t work, it’s that men have no legal control over whether the assume the mantle of fatherhood, which is only in part because of that small percentage of condoms which can’t take the stress.

Cite? I did get free birth control for most of my teen years through California’s Family PACT program, but men are equally as able to access that program as I am.

The NHS certainly hands out free pills, but not free condoms. Obamacare seems to be planning the same thing, on the rationale that the pill is a medicine whereas condoms perform the non-medical function of stopped the spread of STDs. But I don’t really feel that I should educate you on your own country’s domestic government policies.

Cite?

well, if you look further up this thread you’ll see one of your compatriots casually assuming that divorces are caused by men beating and cheating on their spouses.

Cite?

See here, I’m assuming that a 1 in 3 chance is a “good chance” here, feel free to disagree.

Cite?

Again, this is one of the basics of gender studies.

Cite on alimony only being paid toward women?

Again, not only, just overwhelmingly. If there was a social pressure on women to provide for their husbands, if might be more equal, but at present it’s just a way for women to obtain the benefits of marriage without the commensurate duties.

Cite?

For being more likely to die of various diseases, refer to the last thread we had here on cancers by sex, or the cancer research UK website, where it shows men are more likely to die of all major cancers other than breast, cervical and pancreatic.

Cite?

For higher spending on, say, breast cancer than prostate cancer? That’s been done to death on this board.

[Larry_Borgia]

Man, it must be rough being you, blindboyard, waking up every day under the crushing heel of the Gynocracy. Day after day, they put you down, denying you your god given right to sex and a high paying job, circumcising and defaming you, and making you–and this is the real injustice–help support any children you may have fathered.

Any yet you keep going, day after day, in open defiance of their brutal reign. Truly you are a hero for oppressed men everywhere.

I mean, me, I ask for separate checks on dates, take care not to father children I can’t support, have no one but myself to blame for any life disappointments, and have never–I know how unbelievable this sounds–have never once been accused of rape or any violence against women. I was circumcised, and I suppose I’d rather not have been, but it hasn’t prevented me from enjoying sex, nor was it performed at the behest of evil women, but rather by a male doctor for dubious hygenic reasons. It’s really not something I think about at all.

But of course I live in the US, not the horrible dystopia of Gynostan. Perhaps a rally can be organized on your behalf.

[rogerbox]

@LeeshaJoy

And when they are, do people react by blaming the men for being alone at night, dressing provocatively, not fighting back hard enough, etc.? Because that’s what happens to a woman who is a victim of a violent crime. :dubious:

There were many people who blamed Trayvon Martin for his murder because he was wearing a hoodie on his way home from getting some skittles and iced tea. And TONS of young men in bad areas have died from wearing the wrong colors when they weren’t even in a gang. So yes, dressing provocatively can get you killed and blamed for your own death as a young man.

And when I was mugged the first things my uncle said was why I didn’t fight my muggers. There are definitely parallels.

But I am not a men’s rights activist.

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