What Creation stories? I never mentioned any.
I’m not sure how this relates to the OP. All I was saying was that, although not all of us Christians are creationists, it always seemed to me that all creationists were Christians, and I was just wondering why, and if there were creationists of other religions, that’s all.
Actually, far as I can tell, Creationists are fairly common among all religions. We just hear more from the Christian version because this board tends to be slightly Western-centric, which is a part of the world where Christians tend to be in the majority. Were we an Arabic message board, things may be a bit more even.
Also, Christian creationists are far more powerful in the United States, so their apologists have more resources to draw on, and can worm their way into higher places.
Good points, thanks.
What passes for higher education in those cultures?
Well, I can report directly that in fact in those countries I am familiar with in the Arab Middle East, the state curriculum does indeed teach evolutionary theory in science classes.
Perhaps you can share with me your source materials, eh what?
The remainder of the message is tripe.
I should add by the way, that in my experience in the region, most educated Arab Muslims take a somewhat ‘Catholic Church’ POV, holding that nothing in science contradicts the Quran and evolution could be just a means or something along those lines.
Not always terribly well-thought out perhaps, but reconciling science and Quran. The bit about the Big Bang, e.g., cited above is highly typical of ‘Islamic Science’ types, who by comparision with Xian science, seem rarely to want to deny established science but rather give it a ‘Kosher’ (irony is deliberate here) cast.
As such, you rarely run into ‘creationists’ among the educated, religious or not, as they have a route for reconciling the tensions between science and religious precepts. They do exist, of course, but it’s a minority. Nor should I imply, btw, that the Islamic Science folks do not have their own peculariarities which tend to undermine science teaching – but they’re largely in the realm of wanting to have science students study large dollops of Quran as direct supplements to real research, and relatively rarely aimed at denying science per se (a POV which is rather un-Quranic actually).
Now you can get back to the regularly scheduled dezinformatsia on the Middle East.
Can’t speak to the teaching of human evolution, but after poking around a bit it seems evolutionary theory is alive and well in Iran at least, which comes pretty close to a “theocratic thugocracy” in a number of respects ( though a little less so in others, compared to, say, Saudi Arabia ).
Note this professor at Tehran University, whose courses taught include “Molecular Biology and Evolution”:
http://www.fos.ut.ac.ir/~sokhansanj/default.htm
A undergraduate course list, that includes a course on evolution:
http://www.fos.ut.ac.ir/text/department/biol/biol-cellular.html
A master’s level graduate course list, that includes courses/seminars on species and speciation and phylogenetic taxonomy:
http://www.fos.ut.ac.ir/text/department/biol/biol-ms-animal.html
Link to complete listing of courses in biology department, for those curious:
http://www.fos.ut.ac.ir/text/department/biol/biol-courses.html
Frankly, this doesn’t look like an overly lightweight program to me, judging from this list of current ( or semi-current ) student theses. No one studies the phylogeny of the Iranian lobsters using morphological and molecular methods without a solid grounding in evolutionary biology.:
http://www.fos.ut.ac.ir/text/department/biol/student.htm
Again, this says nothing about the study and teaching of the specific topics of creationism and human evolution in the region, but does rebut the notion that evolutionary theory in general is not taught.
- Tamerlane
Tamerlane,
Yes, I see from your links that “Evolution” is worth 2 credits. I also noticed there are also four other units covering Genetics at various levels worth 9 credits in total.
I did not make an assertion based on something I made up. I conducted fairly extensive google searches some time ago on evolution and Islam. Amittedly, I focused mainly on the human/animal evolution aspect.
All I could find were examples of persons who have suffered severe penalties, in the Sudan and other Mohammedan countries as a result of trying to teach evolution.
I will acknowledge that I might have been wrong in my claim for a few of the Muslim countries, particularly where molecular biology is concerned, but if the course on “Evolution” in the Iranian University restricts itself only to molecular biology, which is beyond the ability of most mullahs to comprehend in any manner, shape or form, then I will not acknowledge that I was wrong at all.
Oh wonderous, extensive “google searches” constitutes effective research? Allows you to characterize teaching in re evolution in the Islamic world, across it’s vast span?
Let me give a clue for free: you are wrong, not a little but wrong but utterly and completely wrong.
For those who have left the 19th century, the proper adjectives are Muslim or Moslem.
As to the penalties, well Sudan has had a fucked up government for quite a while, so it is entirely possible. However a citation is still in order, above all from someone using the fairly moldy and discredited term ‘Mohemmedan.’
If, if if…
Okay my dear ever so well informed commentator, let me report to you directly, having worked formerly in an international bio-engineering concern with operations in the region, the school systems in the region (exceptions perhaps for Sudan, Yemen and other backward little corners) do indeed teach evolutionary theory. I used to hire motherfuckers who graduated from such faculties. Sure, not up to snuff in many respects, but the theory is taught.
Now regretably the region’s online information is rather lacking, so confirming this to the various dullards who will doubt my professional word is somewhat difficult. I note, for example, Univ. de Tunis has a genetic engineering program (quite accetable all things considered from what I was led to understand) (http://www.ult.ens.tn/francais/etablissements.htm#biologie)
and similarly one can find similar facilities at Mohammed V - Agdal (Rabat), Morocco’s leading public university. Similary Jordan University has its own highly respect (given the context) bio and medical sciences program. As does Cairo Univ. Even al-Azhar (Cairo) teaches evolutionary theory (perhaps not enthusiastically). Regretably the websites of these are all a bit tempermental. Review at your liesure.
Your pissing on about mullahs and the like and made up just-so-sotires derived from lord knows where are not particularly useful. There is quite enough ignorant bullshit here on the region without gratiutious additions on the ignorance.
Well, as an Orthodox Jew, I can tell you that you are wrong, MC.
There is a wide range of belief among Orthodox Jews. All Orthodox Jews, however, are creationists by definition (i.e. they all believe that God created the universe). Whether or not they believe it was 5763 years ago or billions of years ago is something that is not as dogmatic. Evolution, the Big Bang (or even the Big Band 
) are matters that can be openly debated. About the only points that you’ll get most Orthodox Jews to agree on regarding evolution and the age of the universe are the following:
[ul]
[li]That God created the universe[/li][li]That there have been 5763 years since Adam (not necessarily since the creation of the world)[/li][li]The human being did not evolve, but was created by God[/li][li]Evolution (if it happened) was not random, but was (and still is) directed by God[/li][/ul]
Other than those points, just about all opinions are present within Orthodox Judaism. There are “new Earth” creationists and there are “old Earth” creationists. There are those who hold the accounts in Genesis to be literal, and there are those who hold them to be taken not so literally.
Zev Steinhardt
Collounsbury,
Hello, Friend.
And (probably) fellow kafir. In your case, you most certainly are a fully fledged Dhimmi.
But I’ll try to ignore the over emotional tone of your screed. You have obviously been raised to believe that the Mussulman culture is an admirable thing.
Try reading the translations of the sermons held every Friday at all of the major mosques of the Islamic world. They are freely available and accessible on the net and they are very easy to find.
You will find that they refer to Christians, Hindus and Jews as apes, pigs, infidels worthy of killing and other nasty things.
They also call on the faithful to wreak all kinds of nastiness on the vile infidels, but as long as they lack the power to do so we can have a good chuckle about it, can’t we, Dhimmi?
Yet, you will insist on getting your knickers in a twist because I refer to Mussulmen as Mohammedans? In fact, from the tone of your pathetic missive you seemed to be on the verge of tears.
Get a grip on yourself, you feeble person.
Really, it’s just that most of the Orthodox Jews I’ve met have been the strongest adovcates of evolution and also of Big Bang theory (of course under the guiding hand of God). In my wanderings round the internet I’ve yet to see any Jewish creationists sites. I guess I should not make sweeping statements based on anecdotal evidence on such a broad group of people.
Hey Alan why don’t you start up your own thread about how mohamedans are the devil’s legions or just go crawl back under your rock. Nothing in your last post relates to Creationism.
I get the impression we’d need a fainting couch for you if a big Muslim walked into the room. Don’t worry baby, Uncle W won’t let the bad man get you.
Oh… boy.
Col, stay cool, stay good. Please don’t let yourself get banned over this idiot.
If you must, please link to the pit, and open a thread?
Alan, please, to be fair, the rule is no personal insults in great debates. Also, and this is a bit blunt, you are about to try to enter a ass-kicking contest as a one-legged man against sextuplets.
Finally, I think the debate has been answered by the Moti who happens to be… er… lecturing in interesting ways at this moment. Can anyone identify his “heresy?” I understand the “B-Gita As-It-Is” is a bit reviled, but I don’t know why. Who is this teacher he holds in such high esteem?
Hi CarnalK,
I think you’re just as intelligent as Collounsbury.
Ain’t you proud.
I’m an irreligious fuck, and I’m not your friend.
I was raised as an athiest more or less, and with no real effort to respect of other cultures.
However, I have a good decade or so of professional experience in the region and speak the bloody language fairly fucking fluently, so I rather feel confident in my judgments here. Let me not forget a professional and academic educational background on the same.
I don’t fucking need translations my not friend, I speak the fucking language.
Better yet, I live and work in the region, so I need only hang round any of the friendly neighborhood mosques to hear the various sermons.
No fucking google is necessary for arriving at fucking conclusions on this matter.
Yeah, some do. Most don’t. Whatever. Bloody empty and ignorant scare-mongering.
They, they, they…
I ain’t even a fucking dhimmi, but I get along pretty fucking well.
As to the sermons, see above.
Moslems, Muslims. Anyone this side of the 19th century should be able to get up to date with the proper terminology. Speaks to the education and one’s command of the subject.
Me, a feeble person? Amusing. Althouhg come to think of it my stomach has never been the same after my Cairo stint, a bit feeble on the stomaching bad foul nowadays. Or I’m just getting old.
Quite right, enough information has been provided.
Bit of googling informs me that
A: the gentleman referenced is the founder of Hare Krishna.
B: The As-It-Is is his book, which appears to have several false-to-fact translation errors, some important as they create direct contraditictions with the text.
C: He certainly talks purty. But diagramming a sentence tends to reduce it to either a simple assertion or a closed loop. The assertions tend to be false.
I’ll volunteer myself with qualifications (or maybe an explanation why people like me don’t look quite like “Creationists”). I tend to believe in–or at least expect–a Creator, because the idea of an unconscious mechanical universe giving rise to conscious life is highly counterintuitive to me. But since I don’t believe in the infallibility of the Jewish scriptures, I don’t have to conform my view of pre-history to make all the words of Genesis true. Man can have existed for millions of years, and it’s not a problem for my worldview, because I don’t have this surety that Adam was created only 6000 years ago.