Why Do Hybrids Do So Little For Gas Mileage?

Well I was thinking mainly of plug-in hybrids, I’ve heard some can go 50 miles on a charge (actually more like 40, but for the sake of the math, we’ll say 50). So lets say you have a 100 mile daily commute, you are getting (once again, for the sake of the math) 50 miles of travel on your electric charge, and 50 on your gas engine. At 3.50 a gallon with, say 25 mpg on your gas charge, you’re paying seven bucks for the gas end of your trip. At the equivalent of 80 cents per gallon for charging, you’re paying $1.60 per trip. So you’re getting 50 miles per gallon, thanks to your electric charge. And your fuel cost, while not halved, is close to halved: you are paying .57 percent (14/8.60) of what you’d be paying for gas without an electric battery. Your effective fuel cost is eighty six cents per gallon (100 miles at $8.60 per gallon).
Sweet!

Hell, an all electric plug in that could do a 100 mile trip (and some claim that they can) would cost $3.20 to run, a considerable saving over $14.00. Ten bucks saved per trip five times a week, fifty weeks a year (excluding vacation) we’re talking $2500 a year saved on gas.

Seems all too good … did I screw up the math anywhere?

Nope, it really is that good. That’s exactly the kind of trip that plug-ins are designed for, so they’re really good for it. The numbers won’t look nearly as good for a 500-mile trip to Grandma’s house (though probably still decent, since hybrids are designed for high efficiency in other ways as well).

And all cars get their best efficiency when going slow and steady. You lose energy in two ways: Through resistive forces, which increase at higher speeds, and through throwing it away in braking. For conventional cars, the braking is usually more significant, which is why they get better mileage on the highway than in the city: In the city you have to stop for traffic frequently. Hybrids mitigate (but do not entirely cure) the energy loss from braking, so their city performance is generally much better than conventional cars, but they still lose energy at high speeds, so some hybrids will have worse mileage on the highway than city.

I have a 2010 Prius and Lexus 450 (also a hybrid). In my experience, they get their best mileage when you set the cruise control to some reasonable speed, like 35-65 mph. The constant speed lets the computers optimize gas vs electric, over variations in the road inclines, etc. I regularly get about 60 mpg in the Prius and about 30 in the Lexus over a 30-mile commute which is about 75% freeway.

The next best situation is driving at nearly constant speed, but not cruise. So avoiding the brakes, accelerating slowly. But, when starting from a complete stop, minimizing the amount of time at low speeds is better. That is, burning some gas (but not hitting the “red” acceleration level) to get up to 45 mph and then keeping constant speed uses less fuel overall than accelerating slowly using only electric. (Because that electric energy used to accelerate won’t be available later until it’s been recharged.) I can get about 50 mpg on the Prius and 25 on the Lexus.

The worst case is stop-and-go traffic. For a short while, the car will be electric-only. But eventually the gas engine has to come on. Regenerative braking helps but isn’t that efficient. Of course, the hybrid will be using far less gas than a regular car, since the engine is only on 10% of the time, but the mileage is horrible compared to constant-speed usage. Mileage is about 40 mpg (or 20).

Also, I’ve determined that 89 octane gives about 5-10% better mileage than 87 octane.

My Prius is the same. Stop and go in the city, I can average around 40. On the highway, with the cruise on, I get mid-50s. The thing many people don’t understand about hybrids is that you have to retrain yourself to drive differently. If you continue with jackrabbit starts, rapid acceleration and brake-stomping stops, mileage is going to suffer greatly.

Some of the things I didn’t like were the tiny Atari joystick style shift knob on the dash, pushing a button in to park, and putting the entire remote into the slot. I can’t count how many times I almost broke that remote by turning it like a key out of habit. And the stereo was overly complicated.

And then there is that stupid split fin thingy on the back windshield. It makes looking in the rear view mirror like looking through old style bi-focal glasses! Irritating! :mad:

All-in-all driving that car was like playing one of those sit down driving video games in an arcade. Just weird.

But that was a few years ago. maybe they’ve changed some things?

Key remote never leaves your pants now.
Shifter is on car floor now and more normal.
Never noticed split fin thing until you pointed it out - will have to check next time I drive, but I don’t even notice, but not sure if it is less extreme.
I don’t think stereo is overly complicated, but I think it could be better. Don’t know how it compares to earlier models. GPS system would be my biggest complaint (I think). But most people don’t have that option I’m guessing…

[quote=“Dangerosa, post:9, topic:660676”]

Well, mine is old so I don’t know what’s changed.

I like the shift knob. I rarely shift into Park. The car shifts itself into Park when you turn it off. I don’t find the stereo any more complicated than any other modern one. Why do you put the fob into the slot? Don’t all Priuses have a ‘smart key’? :confused: My fob stays in my pocket.

Yeah, the car is like driving a video game. :cool: :slight_smile:

The horizontally-split rear window does take some getting used to, but I never notice it anymore.

Without that horizontal spoiler, you would have a giant blind spot back there. It’s like all those tiny wing windows to help you see. The window posts are problematic enough as it is, but without the windows I’d have hit several pedestrians.

Exactly my experience, also with a 2010 Prius. My normal commute, which is stop, go for a few 100 feet, then stop again, is terrible for my mileage. Crawling along at a constant speed is good for it. I live in the Bay Area, but I’ve been on some LA Freeways which are jammed but move without anyone braking, and I’ve gotten great mileage there. And I get 55 - 60 mpg heading down I5 in the middle of nowhere with no one around me, moving at 75. The car seems to adjust itself to steady driving. (Hills hurt also.)

Well I noticed the rear spoiler split windows today. Maybe the old one was different, but on my 2010 - depending on how I’m sitting - I sometimes don’t even see the bottom part in my rear window. I did notice it in my rear window while sitting at the drive thru today. It did sort of irk me - which it never did in the 40k+ previous miles…

Thanks a lot! :slight_smile:

I don’t think you screwed up. You can buy a car like that now, the Tesla Model S. The top-end version has a range of 265 miles.

The downside is that it costs $90,000 (~50k for the 140-mile range version). So you’d have to drive it for 28 (or 12) years before it broke even with a $20k car on fuel costs.

FWIW I’m fairly satisfied with my C-Max Energi. Some quirks, mainly in winter, and the MyFordTouch entertainment interface is true to its Microsoft software. But fun to drive, solid, quiet, fits five comfortably. Most of my daily commutes (mostly under 20 miles) are on all electric (range significantly down though in cold and especially with defrost on), and even with 110 charging I often can get 30 plus of all electric with top offs at home between tasks on week ends and short work days. Traveling farther some days I’ve tended to get mid 40s in pure hybrid mode, similar on highway trips if I stay 55ish and under but down to 38 when I creep up to the 70s (just staying with traffic flow, I swear!)

The Prius plug-in gets better mpg as a hybrid and does a little all-electric. The C-Max Energi can handle many of our daily commutes in all-electric, and is a nicer drive by almost every reviewer’s take. That said, there are quirks in its first year release.

Take-away is that it is more important than ever to think about how you will use your car and getting the right vehicle for your driving needs, be it a great hybrid, a plug-in of one all-electric range or another, a pure BEV of one reange or another, a diesel, or other.

Wouldn’t it be cool if you could just text yourself at the pump instead of having to remember the mileage and gallons? Bonus: You can enter your spreadsheet data into the site so you don’t have to start from scratch.

[quote=“Johnny_L.A, post:27, topic:660676”]

Remember, mine was a rental (AKA basic) unit and this was in about 2004 or so. The entire remote was put into a slot on the dash like a key would be. So out of habit every time I went to drive I’d try turning that thing.

Plus I only had the car a week, so getting used to the split rear window wasn’t going to happen.

Another benefit of hybrids, not specifically linked to fuel economy, is the reduction of exhaust fumes in stop-start city traffic when the car is running on battery power.

The car I owned that got the best mileage was a 1983 Datsun Nissan Sentra Diesel. It got 42 in town and better on the highway. I think a hybrid diesel would get awesome mileage, but it would probably cost more than anyone would pay.

Citroen and Peugeot are selling diesel hybrids in Europe, and Volvo, Land Rover, BWM, and Volkswagen are in development or selling them too. They are expensive but the price will come down and they will make more sense economically.

I drive a Ford Fusion hybrid, which I am extremely happy with. It’s a terrific car. It’s true that it some circumstances, e.g. highway driving, its mileage is not tremendously better than the sedan version of the car, generally high 30s versus low 30s. Although often, depending on the flatness of the highway, wind, whether I’m not driving at 70 or above, etc., it’s low 40s, higher than the EPA estimate, and much better than the conventional sedan.

Where the Fusion really shines is in stop and go traffic, or slow city cruising. The EPA estimate is 41 mpg, I think, but I can regularly get well into the 50s or more.

On the other hand, things like hills, high winds, and really cold weather take much of that away. But then, that happens to conventional engine cars as well. In general, the hybrid Fusion gets an average of around 10 mpg better in comparable conditions to the conventional Fusion. Lower than that in standard freeway driving, but much higher than that in slow city cruising.

When I purchased the Fusion, there were tax incentives and a short-lived state policy that eliminated sales tax for hybrids. I essentially got the car for about the same price as a comparably equipped conventional Fusion.

As much as I love it, I have to admit that the increased price premium is a bit hard to justify without the tax incentives. But I see that hybrid prices are coming down all the time. My best advice to people is to realize that the Prius is hardly the only hybrid out there, and by no means necessarily the “best,” which depends on the needs and desires of the owner. For me, the Prius was too uncomfortable, gutless, and noisy on the freeway, especially compared to the Ford Fusion. I decided I was ok sacrificing some mileage for comfort and more power, not to mention better looks. The point is, shop around! I think about every manufacturer these days has hybrid models, and many are very good. If it’s a less popular model, you might be able to get a better deal.

One of the biggest reasons to purchase hybrid, in my opinion, is how clean they are. Modern cars are of course very green these days in general in terms of their exhaust, compared to the past, but hybrids are even better for that than conventional cars by a lot. The ICE simply shuts off when you’re sitting a stop light, or are coasting at below freeway speeds downhill, etc. For me, the cleaner emissions was as much an incentive as the improved mileage.

The last thing I’ll mention is that the source of a lot of people’s poor mileage performance is shitty driving. E.g., accelerating faster than necessary, braking late and hard, not using the cruise control or not maintaining steady speeds, aggressive driving, not pulling through a parking spot so you don’t have to shift in reverse to exit, braking harder than necessary for a corner, etc. Shitty driving leads to reduced mileage on everything. I’ve known some people who bitched that their Prius wasn’t getting the mileage they expected, but then discovered they were trying to drive it like idiots. By which I mean most people. Of course I assume that SDMB drivers are better than average! :smiley:

One of the unexpected things I like about the hybrid, is that beyond the obvious it taught me lots of little tricks to get improved mileage, simply by monitoring the instant mpg readout and power delivery: tricks that don’t reduce the trip time, but over time make a huge difference in mileage.

Which reminds me of the frustrated liberal who tried to commit suicide by turning his Prius on in the garage.

Stolen from Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me

Or hyundai. ItemFix - Social Video Factory