Why do I owe Native Americans anything?

JEEL says:

One of the points that I think you’re missing is that there is a difference between the moneys and services owed to various tribes pursuant to treaty obligations and “aid,” if by “aid” you mean monetary assistance based on financial need.

If you and I make a contract that I will sell you an acre of land for $1,000, then you will owe me that amount of money regardless of how rich or how poor I may be. My finanical situation is irrelevant to the question of whether or not that money is owed under our contract.

Similarly, tribes that received entitlements pursuant to treaty get them because the treaty says so, not because they are poor. They do not waive the right to the money or services set forth in those treaties just because they become better off. It is, in other words, not “aid” – not a handout at all, in fact – but rather a contractual obligation owed by the government to these tribes.

I do not know anything about the Pojoaque, Isleta, and Sandia tribes (if organized tribes they are), so I don’t know whether this is true or not in these cases. But I simply point out that not every amount of money given by the government to the tribes is a hand-out – some of it is a debt, and it will remain a debt until paid, regardless of how rich or poor the tribe in question might be.

  1. "Native American" is a frickin’ term. Deal with it. It may not be completely accurate, but so what? “White” people aren’t white. “Black” people aren’t black. “Anglos”, as the term is used by Hispanics, aren’t all English. When I use the words “Native American”, people know what I’m talking about. The term has therefore served its purpose – to identify aboriginal tribes in the U.S.

  2. Who cares if you personally haven’t discriminated against native Americans? Gah, I hear this one all the time, whether refering to Amerinds or blacks and affirmative action (“I never enslaved anybody.”) Well, guess what? You didn’t fight for independence from Britain, or fight to preserve the Union, or (likely) defeat Hitler either. Yet you benefit from those actions of your forefathers. If you benefit from their positive actions, explain to me why you shouldn’t bear the burden of either their negative actions or, in the case of Amerinds, your forefathers’ treaty obligations?

  3. A few points about aid to other groups – veterans. RickJay, veterans benefits are not a contract. The GI Bill, for example, was enacted after people enlisted/were drafted to fight in WWII. Overall, veterans benefits are entitlement programs, subject to be added to are eliminated at the pleasure of Congress.
    farmers - they’re not serving this country any more or less than steel companies are. They are in a business, and the intent of the business is to make money. Large commericial farms, for example, can be extremely profitable without government subsidies. This country simply has a sentimental attachment to the family farm (caused, IMO, by *Little House on the Prairie * :)), and so we subsidize these commercially unviable farms. If the subsidies ended, commercial farmers would take over the land and “serve” the country better by producing more food from the land. We choose not to allow that.

We make choices about how to spend our government money. We give money to peoples because of their heritage, their military service, their occupation, where they live, or their powerful representative (witness the Byrdian Socialist Republic of West Virginia. Nobody “deserves” any of this - it’s what we do with our money. In fact, of all these groups, Native Americans have the best claim, because our government contracted (treaty) to give them these benefits.

Sua

I can see that there are other folks here who are equally versed in Indian Affairs, but I happen to have an entire law office at my disposal. That’s all we do–Indian Affairs. I think I can pretty briefly and accurately explain the some of the land claim end of what we owe the American Indians and why. I’m going to keep this simple and I’m not going to give a lot of citation (unless you really want it, then I can start digging around).

As stated previously, American Indian tribes are unique sovereign entities. Felix Cohen likens them to “defeated nations,” somewhat similar to Germany and Japan after WWII. Canadian and New Zealand tribes have similar, but not identical legal status. American Indian sovereignty is unique. There is no analogy that can precisely describe their status. People who want to give cogent argument in debates about Indian tribes need to get comfortable with the concept of Indian sovereignty. It is the very center of the debate. Here is some real basic stuff on American Indians, courtesy of the BIA.

This sovereignty has often been questioned and attacked, but it has never been completely destroyed.

When the United States adopted the Constitution, it continued the English premise that Indian tribes were sovereign nations. Early American policy toward Indians not only recognized limited Indian independence and their government-to-government relationship with the federal government, it made it official with the gravest, most far-reaching laws that could be enacted.

One of our nation’s earliest laws was the 1790 Indian Non-Intercourse Act. It was re-enacted in 1793, 1796, 1799, 1802, 1822, and 1834. It’s purpose is exactly as the name implies: don’t f**k the Indians. Indian land could only be conveyed by a tribal government to the United States, and nobody else. To make the law stick, and to make certain that those who would steal Indian land would not get away with it, the United States made this point abundantly clear:

There is no statute of limitations on stolen Indian land.

This premise has been upheld by the Supreme Court at least three times a decade since 1834. It is not negotiable. It is not an arguable point. If people want to change the law, it will probably take a Constitutional Amendment to do it. But right now, it’s the law, and we owe American Indians for millions of acres of alienated land. End of story.

Take for example the Oneida Nation. When the state of New York impersonated the United States 150 years ago and forced the Oneida to sign a “treaty” giving up large swathes of their reservation, the state was knowingly acting illegally, and they should have known that there is no time limit for the Oneidas to recover that land. In a perfect world this would be known, accepted, and atoned for by New York. Instead, they continue to delay and disseminate, and ignorant, borderline racist organizations such as Upstate Citizens for Equality garner press time complaining that giving the Oneida back their reservation is “not fair.” Here is some of UCE’s argument against the Oneida. Some of my more charitable lawyer friends would call this argument “emotive.” Most of them would call it “bullshit.”

Perhaps it’s not fair that the Oneida deserve their land back (according to the Supreme Court), but laches, the fairness doctrine in law, is barred as a defense in illegal Indian land conveyances, along with estoppel, waivers, adverse possession, executive orders, decisions of the Secretary of Interior, and just about anything else. It is some of the most rock-solid law on our books, and that’s the way it is. If you don’t like it, you need to change the law–almost four hundred years of it if you include colonial law.

A quick note about Indian casinos. The profits from Indian casinos are required by federal law to fund the tribal government. Most Indian casinos are not what any sane individual would call “very profitable.” Instead, they pay their own expenses, provide jobs for tribal members where there previously were none, and allow for a small improvement in the services tribal governments provide. Most Indian tribes do not have casinos. Of the minority that do, only a small number of those are hugely successful. I know of no Indian casino that was constructed with American taxpayers’ money, but if one were, it would only be in the form a loan that would be paid back.

I’ll be more than happy to try to answer any questions anyone has, time permitting. That’s part of my job: politely informing people that American Indians are not extinct, are not powerless, do not siphon huge sums of money from government coffers, and are deserving of far more respect and understanding than they currently enjoy.

Ok, i would like everyone to join in a moment of sorry for jeel seeing as nobody feels obligated (morally or legally) to grant him assistance so that he may have live on a vast amount of land with a 100 or so serfs to exploit…

i would also like to point out to MGibson that one of the reasons Native Americans have as many alcohol problems is because unlike europeans who have been drinking alcohol for thousands of years they are relatively new to it and lacked the genetic tolarance for it europeans developed over a very long time on much weaker alcohol. It was/is much, much more addictive to them and as soon as colonists realized this they exploited this.

Native Americans get money. Is it owed to them legally? yes. Morally? well… its pretty much up to your own concencesp - you know the little voice in your head… i mean i dont feel i personally owe them anything… but then again my people werent the ones that “conquered” them, for lack of a better word… hell, my people where pretty much brought over against their will and put to work in the fields… Does that mean im intitled to something… id like to think so… does that mean im going to get it … not in this life time… does that mean im going to hate [as in playahate] on native americans cause they are getting something… not one bit… so to all those
notso happy white americans out there complaining that are getting a free ride (not that all of the complainers are white) id just like to let you know that even if they didnt deserve what little they get… they’d still have more claim to that assistance than you do… (unless you also have a standing treaty entitling you to such assistance)… later…

Sofa, you are sofa king cool. Thanks.

One point I’d like to reiterate:

Jeel, if you can demonstrate to me that the Sandia, Isleta, and Pojoaque casinos are profitable and in the black, I’ll eat my hat. With mayo.

How in the world did you get that from his posts? Reread them.

Cite, please. I would love to hear how people can get genetically tolerant of a substance.

Heh… I avoided posting in this thread again because I didn’t have anything concrete to add one way or another. It’s obvious you have no such reservations. I guess I’ll make a junk post as well.

So then, by your rationale, I should be entitled to compensation from the Moors (whoever they are in this day and age) just because my anscestors in Spain were invaded by them?

Why did I bother with this…

Thanks, andros. I love getting paid to play on the SDMB. I’d like to point out something jeel said in the OP:

This is a perfectly reasonable opinion (although I don’t exactly share it)

However, as I hinted in my prior post, there are not all that many tribes that are “already doing well.” One of my co-workers estimates that the number of “Tiffany Tribes” is about twenty-five. Out of 550. It’s not easy for a tribe to do well, and there are a lot of reasons for this. One reason is state interference. Here’s what many tribes get to deal with:

  • No, or few, state services. States are for the most part not obligated to support Indians living in tribal relations. That’s only fair. Indians usually aren’t obligated to pay state taxes, except…

  • The state lobby is one of the most vocal opponents of Indian sovereignty. The National Governor’s Association, acting as front-man for the oil and convenience store lobby, has successfully shepherded legislation through Congress that compels tribes to nearly match state taxes on consumer goods in order to keep tribes from massively profiting on the sale of gasoline, cigarettes, and anything else you could buy at a roadside store. Why is this a threat to states and their gas stations? One reason is because so many highways run through Indian reservations, so there is the potential for a lot of truck stops. Why do they run through reservations? Because the state isn’t responsible for the highway’s maintenance on reservations. Funny how the highway system was planned that way. The parity in taxation results in less legitimate tax money coming to tribes. And they still don’t get jack from the state govenment.

  • Tribal Priority Allocations. This is how a big chunk of that ten dollars or so a year that you spent on Indian tribes is divided. It’s a mess, and that’s all I’m going to say about it for now.

Now, think about all the services your state helps provide for you: paved roads, electricity, clean drinking water, hospitals, schools… Tribes have to provide most of that money themselves, or try to scrape it out of the hotly-contested TPA funds. A helluva lot of my clients do without. That’s the price they pay for their limited independence and their unique status, and most of those who put up with it do so gladly. Those who can’t hang move away, and out of tribal relations.

Those who stay, well, I love 'em. These folks don’t take no sh*t from nobody, and you rebels, survivalists, secessionists and bitchers ought to take note: they’ve been pulling this off for hundreds of years. Many of us complain about the government and wish we could break away. These folks live it, with a firesome independence I could only wish to emulate. My country needs this. It is, after all, what made us Americans. I think it is appropriate that the original caretakers of this land still have the ability to remind us all why we Americans are here.

I’ve read somewhere that the Dodge family has a trust fund comprised of about 50 million+ dollars in governement bonds, so by the above rationale we should say “stop paying dividends on those bonds. The Dodges don’t NEED it anymore”?

As numerous posters have pointed out, the tribal subsidies and payments are treaty obligations undertaken by the government in return for acquiring land. They are parts of the terms of purchase- there not “conscience” money, paid to assuage anybody’s guilt feelings. The government can no more ignore these obligations than it can decide not to pay its vendors for supplies “because they don’t need it”, or decide to pay dividends only to its bondholders who are povertystricken.

If the Moors signed a valid treaty with your ancestors to provide compensation, and Morocco still recgonized that treaty, then you might have a case. Otherwise it’s apples and oranges.

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I admit I don’t know everything. But after all these stories of them being in poverty and conditions sucking for them what else should I believe? You’ve convinced me that they’re doing fine and could probably stand on their own if they decided to do so.

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Then they’re doing fine. SO nobody needs to piss and moan about conditions being so poor for them.

I didn’t say they were sitting around doing nothing nor did I say they would wither away if it weren’t for handouts. If you’re going to roll your eyes at me then at least have the common courtesy to read what I wrote.

To start with I said I knew of no programs to make them an economic force unto themselves. I never said they didn’t exist I said I knew of none. There was no reason to make sacrastic remarks regarding my lack of knowledge. All you had to do was say “They have them and here they are.” The singing telegram comment wasn’t so nice.

Second I did not say they’d wither away without government help. In fact I said that they would wither away if they remained on the government dole. Go ahead and check the original post. And I’ll say it again. If you want to be rude at least get what someone said right.
Marc

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Their genetic predisposition is not the fault of the white man, they didn’t have to take alcohol in trade or drink it, nor do they have to continue drinking. Incidently I don’t blame drug pushers for getting people hooked either.

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Personally I don’t get my panties in a bunch over money going to the natives. I have no objections to paying them. I was more concerned with them not having any sort of industry because that’s how I see them presented in the media. But Kim pointed out that this wasn’t the case so I was shown wrong. Apparantly they’re doing fine.

Marc

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by nebuli *
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I made that comment in reference to Bobby_Drake2’s “example.” I guess I should’ve made my sarchasm more clear.

Sorry, Lazlo, you made it clear enough. I just had brainlock I guess.

MGibson To start with I said I knew of no programs to make them an economic force unto themselves. I never said they didn’t exist I said I knew of none. There was no reason to make sacrastic remarks regarding my lack of knowledge.

My apologies for getting snitty with you, Marc. I admit I found it frustrating to have posted three or four links to information relating to this very topic and then to find that you’d read right past them and were talking about a few secondhand mass-media images of the “Indian condition”. But you’re right that I had no call to be rude. Glad that you found the non-rude comments enlightening.

Well, if you are White, then you apparently owe every one of every other race something because of whatever your ancestors might have done within the last few thousand years.

I went prowling the Internet a short while back to try to find an impoverished friend some financial help. He is White, not of any Hispanic origin. In my efforts, which failed, I turned up page after page of programs providing finances for the American Indian, especially for schooling. I found more stuff for them than even for blacks.

Not having any direct contact through life with any but a very, very few Native Americans, I went and found American Indian websites and chats and loitered. People have complained about blacks dredging up ancient beliefs or religions or making them up, but I observed that among NAs, it appears that the Old Beliefs never died out.

Plus, the ones I chatted with are not real darn pleased with Whites. I got better communication when I changed my chat name to one sounding Indian, though I never professed to be one. I read similar complaints by NAs that the black people make, i.e., blaming the whites for almost everything, but being more polite about it.

One of the oddest requests I received from an NA chat, was from a young guy seeking help to go to college, looking for NA government loan sites! I gave him the web address that would start him prowling through the many, many pages of American Indian related finances.

I had some problems locating financial assistance for Whites. What I did find was restrictive and much less divisive.

My folks stumbled over here sometime in the not all that distant past and were more interested in opening bakeries, shops in New York City selling meats and spicy sausages, making shoes or starting small restaurants. I don’t think any of my line wandered out West to shoot Indians. (Though, I can trace a branch of my linage back to Spain where it seems they enjoyed over running any natives of any land they discovered. Another branch goes to Italy, one wanders off to Poland and another fled Germany having nothing against the Jews, not wishing to be shoved into Hitler’s’ military and being wise enough to realize everyone back there was nuts.)

A regular league of nations, I am. :smiley:

I sympathize with the NA’s, but I don’t owe them anything.

I’m having a little difficulty figuring out exactly what “benefits” some of the posters think American Indians are getting. Feel free to bust me out on any of the below, but I don’t think you can. Keep in mind that on almost any public works project, states appeal to the Feds for monetary assistance. Before I start, let’s everyone look up the connotation of “per-capita,” so I can continue.

  • Public roads? Less than per-capita federal funding for states, with a disproportionate amount of area. Most of the money goes to the highway system, which we all pay for and benefit from. The Indian Reservation Roads initiative is currently stalled.

  • Water supply? Far less than per-capita state plus federal funding. Ten years ago, the Oglala Sioux brought in a Thermos of brown water for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee to enjoy. That was their drinking water. The Mni Wiconi project for the Great Sioux nation has been consistently underfunded ever since and is not complete. A hundred thousand Americans have fetid drinking water because the three-year project has been telescoped to twenty because we don’t care.

  • Education? Well, the Foreign Service, military and otherwise, enjoys excellent education facilities. The other school system run by the U.S. is for American Indian children. It is funded at a 5:9 ratio in comparison to the FS schools, per capita. Many “temporary” school buildings are approaching thirty years of age. That’s the difference between “suck” and “good.”

  • Indian Health Service. Well, at least we have one now. Did you know that diabetes runs rampant among several of our Southwest tribes? This is great news to geneticists. Unfortunately, the federal government cannot come up with the funding to effectively study this unique phenomenon, because they can’t cough up the cash, and because tribes are smart enough not to give away their genetic information for free to those interested bio-firms who would patent their discoveries without compensation–or relief.

So where, exactly, is all of this less-than-NASA funding going to? How is it hurting you? (I’m a spacehound, too, and ardently support NASA and believe that they are underfunded. Note also that President Clinton asked for an additional one whole billion dollars worth of Indian programs and didn’t get it.)

I’m willing to bet that if the various states had to take in an additional 1.2 million, largely impoverished, somewhat unhealthy, remotely located and undersupplied state citizens we would wind up paying more than we do currently. We’re getting a deal out of this, and yet we look to those few who have taken advantage of their unique status and profited from it, and find ourselves jealous.

Oh, that doesn’t fit in with the paradigm. Must be wrong. Well, the hell with you! Face the fact that racism is built into our goddamned beloved Constitution and deal with it! And then give these people a big thumbs-up for flying you the bird and making you realize it. They have always been bigger than this sort of bullshit, and finally they have the law on their side. Cross that line at your peril. This is one of the few examples where the law and morality run a parallel course. I, for one, will not allow the travesties of the past to reemerge. And the arguments against it are stale.

Apology accepted. There are a lot of things posted in a thread and from time to time I miss things.

Marc

1967GTO said:

There have been plenty of other threads dealing with that sort of complaint. I don’t see what it has to do with this issue. As many of the previous postings have explained, this is not about any “guilt” or “reparations”- it is about obligations which the US government has undertaken as part of a bargain- land for subsidies. Do you feel discriminated against because the Federal Government pays rent for some office building landlord and not to you?

And these obligations are paid from funds collected from all taxpayers- White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, and yes Native American. What gives you the idea it is some special obligation owed only by whites?

My description was sloppy; you’re right, of course.

In the end, this all comes down to the LAW, hence the comparison to the GI bill, which of course is now law. Whatever political decisions may be made, the treaties made with Indian nations must be upheld. They’re law.

Maybe he’s a Christian who read Romans 13:6&7, which clearly state that Christians are supposed to pay taxes to their government.

Since when it is an honorable thing to conquer someone?

Borg to the Enterprise: You will be assimilated. Your biological distinctiveness shall be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

Enterprise to the Borg: FUCK YOU!!!

Forced assimilation is WRONG. By your logic, if the Soviets had invaded and conquered this country, they would have been perfectly within their rights to force us all to learn Russian and become Communists. Why do I think you would have fought back instead? Because you know it would be wrong.

Don’t you?

I think L.A. is a wonderful place to live and its many cultures is one of the reasons why. We should be far less segregated, true, but these things take time.

I suppose you think we should all adopt the same religion, for instance. Which one?

I have many Cherokee and Kiowa ancestors on my mother’s side of the family. I think we have a larger claim to this land than you do, white man.

And if you ain’t a white man, quit acting like one.