Why do kitchen knives retain the factory edge longer than a resharpened edge? And a honing question

I’ve had a variety of kitchen knives over the years of different qualities, but one thing seems to be consistent. The factory edge lasts much longer than the edge after it’s been resharpened. It seems the new edge lasts for months, but when I get it resharpened, it only has that super-sharp feel for a few weeks. I’ve gone to a couple of different sharpening places and it doesn’t make a difference.

Also, why do you move the knife forward along the honing steel? I understand that the purpose is to straighten the tiny lip on the edge, but I would think it would work better to move the knife backwards along the steel. I envision the lip bent back over the knife, so it would seem that moving the knife backwards would do a better job of straightening the lip.

If you run it backwards over the steel you won’t be able to slice yourself when it slips. :slight_smile:

While I’ve only had two sets of good knives, I disagree with your observation.

I bought a good electric knife sharpener last year, and , after learning how to use it, my knives keep a great edge at least as long as the original edge. Maybe longer.

There is no reason a quality sharpening job won’t last. If this is the case, then there is some fault introduced in the re-sharpening. One common sharpening fault is a “wire edge”. Basically the very edge flexes away from the stone, and you end up with a thin spine at the edge. This is fairly weak and easy to either bend over (soft blade) or break (hard blade) .

To avoid this the direction of sharpening needs to be as if you were trying to whittle the stone, and the final sharpening needs to use very light pressure.

A common error with powered sharpeners is to overheat the steel and destroy the temper.

Th

Please tell me more about this gadget-- brand, where purchased, cost, etc.

I don’t know what samclem uses but because of this post, in this thread I’ve been using the Chef’s Choice 130 for several months and have been very happy with it. My knives are holding a good edge, and its convenience means that it’s kept nearby and handy, for any needed quick touch-ups.

Amazon.com link.

I bought the Chef’s Choice 200-3. Probably overkill, but it was a gift for my ex-wife last Christmas. After using it on her knives, I bought myself one. Now, when I visit extended family, I bring it along and do my thing.

The definition of bravery: buying your ex-wife a knife sharpener. :stuck_out_tongue:

Yup, and this can even happen with “professional” sharpening. Some sharpening services are done by someone with experience and knowledge of metallurgy, others are done by an untrained part-time employee in the back room of a retail shop. Once annealed, the edge of the blade is softer than it was from the factory, and will never again hold an edge as well.

I’d WAG that an incompetent sharpening service could actually be adequate in a commercial kitchen, where the knives are sharpened frequently enough that nobody notices the difference.

Thanks ever so.

Psh, shows what YOU know. :rolleyes:
Dull knives do more damage than sharp knives, so he’d at least be mitigating the injuries. :smiley:

I have read some of the posts here advocating electric sharpeners, and I just wanted to point out a manual sharpener that has worked very well for me and my Japanese-German chef’s knife. It produces an edge about 90-95% as sharp as a pro using a whetstone, IMHO. I have tried the whetstone thing and I can’t hold a precise angle for the life of me.

Have we decided whether or not it makes a difference which direction you sweep the blade on the steel?

To answer the original question, the current trend in kitchen knives is towards very hard metal blades.

Very hard metal blades can be made ridiculously sharp and keep those edges a lot longer than softer metal. But they are also seriously frustrating to sharpen.

That thing that looks like a metal rat tail? That’s not a knife sharpener (or I don’t regard it as one). All that does is remove burrs. To really sharpen a knife, you need a whetstone. And if you’re sharpening one of those beforementioned extra-hard blades? Expect to put some time into it.
Me, I prefer a moderately hard blade. I use “Old Hickory” knives. I can sharpen them to the point that they cut like a single-edge razor blade. They don’t hold that edge as long as a new Wusthof or Henkel but I can bring them back to that kind of edge without feeling like I’m trying to shape a piece of neutronium.

Just to clarify, there is a difference between sharpening and using the honing steel. Here’s an article on honing a blade http://www.chefdepot.net/knifesharpening2.htm. It’s where you slide the knife down a piece of steel to reshape the edge. The thing that confuses me is why you move the knife forward along the steel. It seems if the edge was bending over, then sliding it forward along the steel would bend it even further over.

This sharpener is also listed at amazonfor $75. I like the idea of a non-electric one, as in my old kitchen, electrical outlets are limited.

As I mentioned, I’m a bit of a fumble-fingers when it comes to knife sharpening. I simply can’t hold the knife at a constant angle as I move it down the whetstone, and I hone the blade with a steel primarily by feeling the knife catch on the steel. The contraption with the spinning waterstones, you just hold the knife straight up and down and draw the knife through the slot. The bevel on the wheels does the rest. I think you’d really have to work at it to ruin an edge with this device, unlike an electric sharpener, which is why I mentioned it.

I suppose one of the angled stick sharpening systems like from Lansky or Spyderco would work too. I’ve not tried them though, and my sharpener was on considerable sale when I bought it. There’s the scary-sharp system, which sounds like you can get an absolutely ridiculous edge with it, but again, it helps to have the required tools.

At 75 or whatever W-S or Sur la Table is charging though, I can see just bringing them to the local knife guy who seems to be at every farmers’ market I’ve ever been to. But hey, if you’re dropping 300 dollars plus on the latest Shun, Bob Kramer, or Masamoto Gyuto, (I’m not) what’s another 75 bucks?

If the factory edge lasts longer, someone isn’t sharpening it right. I keep my knives extremely sharp, and I only need to do a real re-sharpening job maybe once a year. Most of the time, a light touch-up with a medium and fine grit stone is all I need to bring back a shaving-sharp edge. With a proper relief bevel your knives will be very, very sharp and stay that way for a long time, unless you abuse your blades.

A factory edge typically has an inadequate relief ground into it. If the resharpener doesn’t properly rebevel the blade to put in a proper relief, then the secondary bevel is more abrupt, has more metal behind it, and thus blunts even faster after a couple of sharpenings. Here’s a brief overview of sharpening, and a much more detailed one that both square pretty well with my own knowledge on the subject.

The sole advantage of an obtuse primary bevel is that the secondary bevel is more robust and resistant to chipping. Of course, that’s usually because it’s blunt as shit. A more robust edge is not something that’s terribly important in a kitchen knife, unless you’re talking about a heavy boning knife or cleaver that will be hacked through tough connective tissue and bone in a way you’d never treat a more delicate blade like a chef’s knife. Or unless you’re sharpening an axe. But even an axe’s edges can be hollow-ground and sharp enough to shave with while still being capable of cutting down a tree without notching. So, really, there’s no reason to “sharpen” your knives like this.

Electric knife sharpeners are universally shitty. They put a very coarse edge on because they use brute force and a coarse abrasive method (usually carbide or tungsten-steel disks) to achieve a quick result. They also destroy the relief — if there was by some miracle any ground in by the factory in the first place — and quickly alter the blade profile because they remove way too much material. This ultimately shortens the overall lifespan of the knife.

With a Western-style through-hardened knife, that’s not quite as critical (though you will chew up enough of the knife to destroy the shape of the blade in a matter of years instead of decades) but with some Japanese Santoku or similar differentially-hardened blades, you could destroy most of the hard edge and be clawing away at the softer material farther back in the blade in a relatively short time.

Steeling is generally only useful for some kinds of carbon steel knives, those with relatively soft (under Rockwell 56–58) blades. Asian-style blades are typically hardened more than traditional Western blades; usually Rockwell 58 or higher. Touch-up honing with a very fine grit stone, or with a ceramic rod is better for these. A traditional steel will coarsen the edge and might rip out sections since the trade-off for hardness is that the edge ends up being a bit more brittle. Most kitchen knives now are some flavor of stainless, which also doesn’t act the same way. They tend to be more brittle than carbon steel at the same hardness, so steeling can actually make the edge blunter by ripping off microscopic bits of the edge instead of returning them to true.

Steeling could technically be done either way. If you do it with the back of the blade up (given a vertical orientation), or toward you (horizontal orientation; not recommended, but I’ve seen quite a few people do it this way) and push the edge along the steel, it makes it easier to judge the angle of the blade to the steel. It’s also much less awkward mechanically considering that blade handles are generally made to be held with the blade facing away from you. If you really wanted to, I’m sure you could steel backwards. You’d probably end up cutting yourself a few times, and you probably wouldn’t be able to address the whole blade — including the tip — and you’d probably screw up the edge angle.

If I understand you correctly, that’s the exact opposite of the advice in this recent GQ thread.

The most frustrating thing I’ve found about trying to sharpen knives is all the contradictory advice.