My ex sister-in-law had a hoarding problem. Every flat surface of the House was piled with junk, clothes were strewn 2 to 3 foot deep all over the bedroom floors, dishes and pots and pans, clean and dirty mixed, were scattered all over the kitchen. And it wasn’t some savant like form of organization, nobody ever knew where anything was. Plus there were a lot of leaves and twigs and dirt mixed in with everything. And bugs. My niece and nephew sometimes found bugs in their clothes.
One time I tried to clean and she flipped out on me because I tried to discard a piece of a broken “Happy Meal” Toy - because “maybe we can find the rest of it and put it back together”. then the house, which she had inherited started to fall apart from lack of maintenance because no one could access anything in the interior to repair it. Part of the roof caved in. The city told her she had to move out so she started sleeping (with my niece ) in a tent in the yard and sneaking inside to use the bathroom. She lost the house because she failed to make payments on a ridiculously small second mortgage, the payments were something like $200 a month. The bank sold the house for probably something like 1/10th of the market value for a similar home in good condition. The house was in such bad condition that the new owners just bull-dozed it, contents and all, hauled off the debris and build new.
So she literally destroyed the house she inherited.
Growing up in fetid living conditions had profound psychological effects on my niece and nephew. They are in their twenties now and are finally starting to talk about it more and push back on their mom. Who will never get help.
Those hoarding shows helped me get rid of tons of stuff because I didn’t want to become a hoarder. My rule of thumb was, if hadn’t thought about or touched it in 10 years, I don’t need it. The good thing about my new place is that I have so little storage space, if I get something new, something old has to go.
I married a slob and gave birth to another. I love the aesthetics of a clean house – to me it is something like creating a tableau, an artistic endeavor. It is not shared by anyone I’m related to. Since living with a slob, if you are tidy, means that you are always unhappy and they never are (unless you make them be so by complaining), I have given this matter an incredible amount of thought.
Slovenliness is different than hoarding. Though there is overlap. Hoarders become intensely attached to their stuff, including obvious garbage. They feel agonizing mental pain at even the thought of getting rid of anything. But slobs don’t care about their stuff. My particular slobs don’t care much about anybody’s stuff, they just don’t care about possessions very much at all.
One overlap with hoarders is that both categories have notable difficulty with the concept of ordering. Ordering, as in putting similar things in the same drawer, filing important papers where you can find them again, making sure you take a list to the grocery store. What I have observed with my slobs is that they simply cannot do these types of things without a lot more stress and effort than seems normal.
So, they live with quite a bit more mismatched socks, lost car keys, forgotten milk, and shuffling through papers to find a phone number than I for one could ever stand. They are not more easy-going than me, but they have a lot more tolerance for chaos – either by necessity or preference it is hard to say – than most people do.
As far as the OP query goes, you are asking the wrong question. The question is: what is more important to you, your daughter living the way you approve of, or your relationship?
Tidiness is much more important to my gf than it is to me. So, we have a housekeeper who cleans most of the house. She doesn’t touch my bathroom or my Man-cave. Yes, that’s a slice of pizza on top of my beer fridge. If it doesn’t have anything growing on it I might eat it later.
So, the house in general is very neat. I contribute somewhat to that. And my gf doesn’t comment about the level of mess in my Sanctum Sanctorum.
Your wife sounds like my mum, and your daughter sounds like me. I don’t really care if the house is messy, but I know my mum doesn’t like it. If she came over and started cleaning up, I would feel like that was something she was doing for her rather than for me, even though I also benefit.
Sometimes my dad will come over and clean while he is here, especially if my mum and I are talking, and he is getting bored. He never makes a fuss about it, or expects anything in return. It feels a little bit weird, but I do appreciate it.
This is also one of those George Carlin situations, where everyone messier than you is a slob with no self-respect and everyone tidier is an obsessive neat freak with no sense of proportion. I don’t care how clean your house is, there is someone out there who’d be shocked and appalled at how often you steam clean your carpets or whether your sheets are ironed. And however sloppy you are, there’s someone who thinks your priorities are all wrong if you can remember the last time you changed your sheets.
If you really hate how your daughter keeps house, I’d offer to pay for a cleaning service every couple weeks. But do it for you, not for her, and don’t think of it as a gift.
A few responses. We had 3 kids and have always had dogs. Wife worked full-time until the 3d was born, then pt-time after. So we have some idea what is involved. And we went to many other houses with kids. My daughter’s is messier than all but one - and we didn’t feel comfortable having our kid go to that house to play. I could imagine other parents feeling that way about having their kids come over to pay.
Someone who is messy might call us neat freaks, but I can point out furniture in every room that has never been moved and cleaned behind. And I just noticed how filthy the window sills are. And we are always battling tumbleweeds of dog hair. So it is all on a continuum. We tend to get rid of stuff we don’t need, and we don’t have a lot of knick-knacks. So a lot of clean surfaces that clean up easily.
My daughter broke her foot 3 days ago - the state of their house is not a recent thing. They were having 15 people over for a birthday party. On the stove was a paper towel which had been used to sop up grease. Why would you not throw that in the garbage right next to the stove? I wonder how many months it has been since the counters or stovetop were cleaned well - all manner of crumbs and spills. These 2 do not make a ton of money - but there were grass clippers and sidewalk chalk which had been left out in the rain. The clippers were rusty and the chalk ruined. The outside stairs down to the basement had never been cleaned of last fall’s leaves. There is a drain at the bottom, and the leaves were several inches thick. That is just basic maintenance. One way to avoid spending money unnecessarily is taking care of the things you already have. Such obvious waste bothers us, but that’s a somewhat different topic. Suffice it to say you don’t THINK of taking your shoes off when you enter, because your socks would get dirty. And none of that gets to the clutter.
If you asked my kid, she’d tell you all these convoluted plans she has for getting organized, but she seems to spend more time planning on cleaning than simply getting rid of crap, putting stuff away, and cleaning house. She recently cut her hours so as to have more time caring for the house. I don’t see the results. This is NOT a big house. It would not take more than an hour or 2 per week to keep VERY clean. But it would take WAY more time if they don’t simply decide where things go and put them away when they are done with them. I wouldn’t call them hoarders. Just very disorganized.
When we had 3 kids, their toys did not take over every room in the house. A few toys could stay out, but the rest had to be put away in their rooms. And once a bunch of toys were out, we and the kids would put those away before they took others out or before bedtime. When the kids were older, we told them as long as they kept their rooms neat, we would respect their privacy and have no reason to go through their drawers and closets. They kept their rooms clean. My granddaughter has so many toys, and they are spread through every room.
Like I said, I know my adult kids can style their lives how they wish. But neither of us are comfortable in her home as dirty as it is. Good thing we have the option of having them over to ours.
You know, for years, your daughter didn’t have that option. She had to live with your priorities. She’s decided that she wants to life her life/raise her children with different priorities. That might be the conversation to have with her–what did she feel was wrong with the way you all did it that she wants to raise her own child in a very different way? Right now, you disapprove of her. You’re attempting to temper your disapproval, which is admirable, but it’s clear you think there’s an element of moral failure in this. Cleanliness and orderliness is certainly a huge class marker in America and there’s all sorts of social stigmas associated with someone that doesn’t meet some pretty arbitrary standards. Being messy is being trashy. And being trashy is shameful.
You come across as disapproving in this thread, and I can’t imagine that that doesn’t come across when you are around her. That disapproval will create feeling of shame in her, which will almost certainly make her double-down on not cleaning to meet your standards, because human nature is perverse like that. I don’t think the solution is to just not go to her house. I think the solution is to learn to be comfortable in her house, even if it’s not how you’d like to live. You need to quit seeing how she keeps her house as a failure on her part.
My wife and I have cleaned houses for 18 years. We’ve learned that people have different tolerances, perspectives, and priorities. Comparisons are often useless because most people only show you what they want you to see. And many times the conditions of homes are greatly impacted by children, the demands on modern parents, the demands of modern work, the consumerism of modern society, and issues like depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc. Heck, we’ve maintained the homes of others while ours was a disaster we’d let nobody see as I was depressed for years due to my life in a cult that was all I had ever known, and that I’ve since found glorious freedom from.
The condition of a home can definitely reflect the inner workings of a person. That doesn’t necessarily mean that a cleaner home reflects better either. Everybody has their baggage. Some just hide it better.
I know all about dog hair. I had a Golden. A Roomba for pets works really good, though you have to be sure to clean it out after every run. Our dog blew out the motor of the previous, feeble one.
I agree with the cleaning service suggestion already made. Maybe you can get your daughter to accept it because of her foot. And maybe some boxes for the toys and papers? There is a lot of room between immaculate and disaster. Just having stuff off the floor would be a good start.
For the clothes, throwing them in a hamper is as easy as throwing them on the floor. And makes laundry much simpler to do.
We use lots of tissues, and have lots of trash cans.
Ok, you say your daughter has plans for cleaning, but doesn’t get to it. So are you saying that she is unhappy with the state of her house? What about her husband?
One thing to consider about a messy house is asthma. I acknowledge my own hoarding tendencies that I got from my dad and his mother. But I’ve worked hard to flip that switch because breathing is kind of important. Asthma is on the rise in the US. I was surprised when I was diagnosed. I figured if you didn’t have it as a kid, you wouldn’t have it as an adult. Wrong. Dust mites and bug dander make breathing harder than it has to be.
There are a lot of benefits to having clean and cleared surfaces. Like being able to sit down with your child and do an art project. Or making cookies. No, nagging is never a good plan, but having things clean and neat doesn’t mean you can’t have time with your kids.
umm—is there a problem with this? Who’s being judgemental here?
Your socks pick up some dust and hair, so you toss them into the washer at night when you get home. Just like if you took your grandkid outside and played on the lawn, and you got some mud on your pants cuffs.
My practical advice: love your grandchild. Visit often.
And when you visit, after an hour or two, get up and spend 15 minutes cleaning the critical stuff.
Wipe down the kitchen counters, throw soggy old paper towels in the trash. Do basic cleaning only…do NOT try to re-arrange things according to your standards of neatness.
Leave toys and clothes where they fell on the floor, but pick up old tissues,etc.
Part of this is a matter of time for cleaning. Note I say “part”, it’s certainly not the whole explanation.
You can help if and only if they want help. If they do not perceive a problem they will see your help as interference. If they do want help they *might *welcome it… or maybe not.
I have worked for landlords and in construction and remodeling. You can not tell the interior state of a home from the exterior in any reliable manner, or based on socio-economic levels or the neighborhood it is in. I have been in very poor homes that were immaculate and wealthy homes that were horrific squalor. I’m not discounting your experience - your daughter’s home may well be the worst in your circle of experience - but what you’ve described, although not wonderful, is not what I would call truly unhealthy squalor.
Since it may wind up being the best answer I’m happy to see first sentence. As for the second… the best approach might be “Hon… while we were over helping out after you broke your foot we noticed your house is a bit cluttered. Would you like some help with some of that?” and see if she bites. Even if she does, she may not want you to do as much cleaning as you’d like.
If your wife is willing to take direction from her daughter - after all, it is the daughter’s house - and both wind up happy at the end of the day instead of screaming at each other that might well be a good solution.
It’s not so much there being an “advantage” in messiness as factors that lead to someone not spending time and energy on cleaning.
Some reasons I, personally, have seen and/or encountered myself:
[ul]
[li]child or other relative care taking up a lot of time, leaving the person tired and wanting to rest instead of clean[/li][li]work leaving a person exhausted (either due to the effort involved, or working overtime/two jobs) and wanting to rest instead of clean[/li][li]allergies/asthma that flare up when the person cleans, meaning cleaning really does make them physically ill, which can become a nasty negative reinforcement spiral[/li][li]mental illness - depression, OCD, others[/li][li]alcohol and/or drug use[/li][li]battles between spouses/roommates over doing/not doing cleaning chores.[/li][/ul]
That said - the really critical thing here it distinguish between squalor and clutter. Squalor is dishes that go unwashed forever, rotting food, infestations of vermin that are not being addressed. Clutter is when dishes are cleaned (even if not immediately), garbage is disposed of, and so forth. Clutter is mess and dust but not a health hazard. Squalor is a health hazard.
Of course, there is not a sharp dividing line between the two. Most of what you’re describing to me sounds like clutter more than squalor, but as I said I’m not there and I’m getting this second hand.
I’ll also point out, as has already been done, that different generations put different priorities on these things. The younger crowd seem much more concerned with personal hygiene these days, though of course this sort of thing varies all over the place. If you grew up in a culture that puts a heavy, heavy premium on household neatness what is consider acceptable by the generation after you may be distressing.
As I said, though, the key thing is that there isn’t a health hazard. Rotting food needs to be cleaned up. A little dust or stacks of stuff on a table not so much (unless it’s stacks of old pizza boxes).
If you’re willing to help out and daughter is amenable go for it, it may be good for both parties. But don’t expect your daughter to become your level of neat, and don’t exhaust yourselves with trying to make her house as neat as yours.
Some of it may be the different definitions of “orderly” people have, or that items owned by other people are always more attention-grabbing than your own. My mother’s trail of wrappers bothers me a lot more than my pile of balled-up papers. My not-classified-by-color underwear bothers her (solution: don’t open those drawers, Mom!).
SiL is a hoarder, but at first sight her house is spotless; just don’t open any closets, cupboards, the fridge… or any of the three storage rooms they own in the same building.
Mom isn’t a hoarder but she leaves trails.
Both Bros and I are “pick up as you go” people (taught by Dad and his mom). Other people are “big cleanup” people. That weekly cleanup of bathrooms and kitchen? I never. It’s possible that Dinsdaughter’s bathroom would make me want to grab a scrubber right then, and it’s possible that whatever bothers you wouldn’t bother me at all - like my brothers and dust bunnies, which for one might as well be invisible and the other could see but didn’t bother about unless he was to have visitors (now that there’s a toddler in the house, bunnies are murdered as soon as any dares form).
Dinsdale, is it possible that as relatively new homeowners, your daughter and SIL don’t know the importance of doing certain tasks? Like, it may not have occurred to them that leaves need to be raked for both practical and aesthetic reasons. What may be intuitive to you may not be intuitive to someone much younger and inexperienced.
The fact that your daughter is constantly “planning” makes me think that’s she overwhelmed by the what she has to do. Has she always been disorganized? Had problems carrying out plans? If so, she might have suboptimal executive function. Perhaps she doesn’t meet the criteria for an actual disorder, but still has problems meeting certain standards.
Another guess is that she and her SIL don’t entertain guests that often, and maybe don’t go to other people’s houses that often either. People who entertain often have a great incentive to keep things neat and tidy. And they may not know how cluttered their house is if they don’t check out other homes on a regular basis. Just a WAG.
To me, having plans (especially "if you ask my daughter, she has plans) implies one of two things: either she doesn’t really care, but when mom and dad start to nag her about something that is none of her business, she talks about “plans” until they are satisfied, OR when mom and dad are there, their disapproval shines so strongly that she starts to feel guilty and ashamed, and so starts making plans. She forgets the plans as soon as they leave, because they weren’t motivated by the mess, they were motivated by the disapproval, and once her parents have left, the motivation is gone.
When I was little, I was a hoarder. It was bad. In my bedroom I had a path to my bed and to my dresser. Everywhere else was jumbled with paper, books and toys. No food was allowed in the bedroom, thank heavens. Twice a year my mother would threaten to clean my room. About once a year she would follow through and I would end up with basically just furniture and a few knickknacks. As a teenager, I was moderately better, but there would frequently be a glass roundup as I would have every cup/glass in my room.
She was a cleaner. Once a week the house would be upturned, everything scrubbed and vacuumed. Toys were allowed in the living room while you were playing, but immediately put away. No dirty dish ever sullied a countertop.
After I moved out and had my daughter, she would come by claiming to check in on us. No, it was so she could clean. Instead of spending time with her granddaughter, she would do the dishes, wash the walls, mop the floors. The problem with that, other than not having quality time with her granddaughter, is that once I moved out and had an infant, I became kind of a neat freak. I still hate doing dishes, and dusting is a pain, but you can eat off the floor in my house. Because she didn’t do it, it wasn’t up to her standard.
She and my dad babysat at my house twice ever. The first time I came home, she had cleaned and reorganized all of my kitchen cupboards and my linen closet. She also took home all of my dirty laundry, which sounds great, but was really invasive. She went under my bed, for heavens sake. The second time she went through my bedroom again, cleaning and organizing to her way. Her way is not my way. Afterwards, if they wanted to spend time with their granddaughter, it was at their house.
Twenty four years later, when she comes over we stay in the kitchen. I don’t want her anywhere else in the house because she picks at everything. And pretty much every time she comes over, she expresses her surprise at how clean my kitchen is. And I get upset with her.
So, personally, I would suggest to your daughter that if she’s serious about cleaning, you’d offer to pay for a cleaning service to come by once or twice. Don’t get yourself involved, as the fallout can last a long time and cause hurt feelings.
Thanks again, all. I guess by the general consensus, their home is quite cluttered, rather than squalor. I have never gotten ill eating there, but when I see a dirty counter, stove, or sink, it does cross my mind to wonder how clean the plates and utensils are. And once the clutter gets to a certain point, the dirt starts to pile up.
We haven’t talked about this much with my daughter very much. First of all - show of hands - how many of you have adult children? How eager are they for you to discuss just about any aspect of how they lead their lives? My daughter - by her own admission - tends to be reactive and defensive. Not about everything, mind you. We aren’t continually walking around eggshells. But we generally try quite hard to keep to ourselves anything that could be viewed as criticism.
It is curious to us when she will say things like she never “learned how to clean.” 2 responses: first, it isn’t rocket science; second, what the heck did she think we were doing every weekend? One of the reasons we never hired a cleaning service was that we thought it important to show our kids the need to take care of your possessions. I guess that is one of the lessons that didn’t take! :rolleyes:
SIL is somewhat outwardly pleasant, but somewhat distant. But again, my thinking is always that so long as he loves and respects my daughter and granddaughter, and helps her maintain a decent lifestyle, his pleasing his in-laws is way down the list of priorities. I’ve been to his parents’ house - it is maintained far better than theirs.
