I have to ask, Dinsdale… If I came to your house and rearranged everything the way it needs to be - nothing important can be hidden, tools must be kept out at the places where they’ll be used, clothing belongs in piles on the bedroom floor with the dirty pile in its particular position, and so on - would you be happier afterwards?
I don’t, but my mother did. The house always had to look like something out of BH&G “in case somebody stops by”, which of course never happened.
Well, that went better than I would have expected.
Thanks to all for your comments/suggestions (even those a less charitable person might interpret as mean-spirited! ;))
Well?
StG
That sounds like my sister’s house. When I described it to my claims adjuster friend she said, “Oh, a fire trap.” My sister’s philosophy is that she has better things to do than clean. And she does. It’s not like she’s sitting there staring at the walls, she’s always doing something (and had a full-time job before she retired a couple of years ago). I mentioned to her husband once that I thought she had hoarding tendencies. He replied, “Tendencies?” I guess she got on his case once because he supposedly didn’t do anything to keep the house clean but, in all fairness, he’s not making the mess.
Your kid/SIL almost certainly has what we technically call Slob Brain. Lots of people WANT a nice clean house but are really bad at it – they don’t have the daily habits, they literally don’t notice the mess until they look around and are stunned by it, they are good at planning but bad at actually decluttering or keeping up with habits. If you are fully capable of not thinking about dishes until you get up in the morning and are completely surprised by the giant pile of dishes (because you didn’t wash them, duh), you probably have Slob Brain.
I’ve found this blog/podcast/book duo to be very helpful at dealing with my own Slob Brain. Plus she’s funny. She doesn’t blog a lot any more but is mostly doing the podcast/book thing right now. https://www.aslobcomesclean.com/ If you have the kind of relationship where you can bring this up, maybe ask your daughter if she’d be interested.
DISCLAIMER: On going to post this, I feel embarrassed because I’ve written a novel, but I don’t want to trim out a single word. It all feels important. So… here you go. Good luck…
I’m sincerely sorry for the delay. I tend to ramble more when tired and regret it later, so I excused myself from responding until I felt I could rein in my blabbermouth. I’m still tired, so apologies again if this is barely coherent, but here we go. (Quoting via the forum function would clutter and lengthen the post so I’m merely quoting conventionally here.)
Here are things that I consider reasonable cause for concern:
(Dinsdale) “[…] the kitchen and bathrooms do not look like they have ever undergone the level of cleaning we do weekly (NOT what we consider periodic deep cleaning). Because of the clutter, surfaces and floors do not get swept/vacuumed/washed.”
Kitchens and bathrooms are generally the worst areas of a filthy house. The sole bathroom in our house, upon its most recent (professional) cleaning, was… unspeakable. But the walls don’t need to be caked with feces for a bathroom to be a biohazard. Meanwhile, clutter in the kitchen is a fire hazard, as my own experience proves. It’s particularly concerning if there is clutter on top of the stove or inches from it.
(Dinsdale) “I visit many friends and family members, and cannot think of any home that is messier or dirtier than this one.”
Dinsdale is a self-confessed neat freak, but they’ve seen plenty of homes. The comparison allows perspective. If the daughter’s house is truly the messiest house they have ever seen, that’s concerning.
(Filbert) “You have to practically dig to find carpet. She’ll have two couches and an armchair, with just enough space for two people to sit down out of the 7 theoretical options.”
When there’s a literal ocean of clutter concealing the carpet, or there is no available sitting space due to the clutter, that is excessive. To have clutter piled on desks, tables, shelves, etc. is quite normal, but on the couch? The floor? A friend of mine used to stack books on his radiator because he ran out of shelf space in his tiny apartment.
(lingyi & D’Anconia) “My place is messy, tissues and clothes on the floor because when I get home from work I’m mentally exhausted.” “Why on earth would you throw (presumably used) tissues on the floor? That sounds rather unsanitary.”
It is.
(Ann Hedonia) “Every flat surface of the house was piled with junk, clothes were strewn 2 to 3 foot deep all over the bedroom floors, dishes and pots and pans, clean and dirty mixed, were scattered all over the kitchen.”
(kayaker) “Yes, that’s a slice of pizza on top of my beer fridge. If it doesn’t have anything growing on it I might eat it later.”
This is probably hyperbole intended as humor. But some people could say it and be serious about it. If you leave food sitting out, uncovered, in random locations around the house, that is bad.
(Dinsdale) “On the stove was a paper towel which had been used to sop up grease.”
Fire hazard. Biohazard.
(Dinsdale) “Why would you not throw that in the garbage right next to the stove?”
Behavioral red flag.
(Dinsdale) “I wonder how many months it has been since the counters or stovetop were cleaned well — all manner of crumbs and spills.”
If a houseguest can tell that you spilled something on the counter at some point in the past, that counter is not clean. Most spills don’t leave permanent stains when you wipe them up. An old stain on the carpet is one thing, but the counters, the stove? No.
(Dinsdale) “If you asked my kid, she’d tell you all these convoluted plans she has for getting organized, but she seems to spend more time planning on cleaning than simply getting rid of crap, putting stuff away, and cleaning house. She recently cut her hours so as to have more time caring for the house. I don’t see the results.”
Many people believe this behavior is your daughter pushing back against your disapproval. But I’ve seen this behavior and been guilty of it as well. When your house is filthy, often you know it. Hoarders know it: few would tell you “my house is spotless!” And they’ll make plans to clean. They know they should clean, they tell themselves that, they’re all set with that to-do list… Then it doesn’t happen. If this happens repeatedly, that’s a worrying pattern, and you should be examining what exactly is holding you back. Common causes are “it’s overwhelming” and “I just don’t have the energy/motivation.” Letting the house be dirty because you don’t care can be healthy or unhealthy depending on the level of mess you’re deeming acceptable. But if you want to clean and you’re not… that suggests a problem.
“But neither of us are comfortable in her home as dirty as it is.”
When your mess is making guests squeamish or uncomfortable, pay attention to that. In some cases, it’s nothing and they’re overreacting. But… it also might be an important warning sign. We never had people over at our house, and I tried to keep visitors at the door (pizza delivery guys, et al) from getting a glimpse inside. Also, I was uncomfortable and squeamish living in my house. I’d hesitate to use the bathroom despite bodily demands. I cherished the opportunity to use a public restroom because they were a luxury in comparison!
(Broomstick) “Squalor is dishes that go unwashed forever, rotting food, infestations of vermin that are not being addressed.”
Broomstick is correct, but I want to make this very clear: those examples are extreme. They are obvious, huge, screaming, flashing-neon-lights warning signs. There’s more to it than that. There can be subtlety. I lived in the squalor that Broomstick described, but I’ve seen the small things too.
(RTFirefly) “Dinsdale’s daughter’s house sounds way beyond ‘disorganized.’ It sounds like it’s approaching (if not already there) the level where you can’t use a good deal of the house because of all the stuff in it, where you can’t use or find the stuff you’ve got because of all the other stuff that’s taken over. When it gets to that point, you’ve got a pathology, not a lifestyle choice.”
This is correct; pay attention to this.
(Dinsdale) “My [brother-in-law] is […] tolerant of considerable mess, but he observed that he had never seen a bathroom as dirty in anyone’s home.”
Again: comparison… perspective… and freakin’ bathrooms.
(Dinsdale) “I asked my wife and sister if they thought the house was simply cluttered or unhealthy squalor. They both thought carefully, and said if it is not unhealthy, it is pretty close.”
Dinsdale doesn’t state whether he asked his brother-in-law this same question, but the above implies he’d agree to some extent. That’s a four-person consensus that the mess might be getting out of hand.
(Dinsdale) “I forgot, [my son-in-law] also works a second job. While [my daughter] works 20 hrs/week.”
The son-in-law is working two jobs and one of them is full-time. He’s almost certainly overworked, and his contribution to the cleaning of the house is probably minimal. I don’t blame the man for that. The daughter may be equally drained; a part-time job plus a three-year-old doesn’t sound like a cakewalk. The daughter will need to handle more of the cleaning as she is the one who works less, but she may feel she needs help and that’s valid. If the husband can’t provide it, then a third party should be brought into the equation. Your daughter and her spouse will need to decide if Mom helping out is OK or if a professional is called for. If you think their budget might be tight, by all means offer to pay for the service. It would ease the stress of everyone involved.
(Yes, I’m aware that the son-in-law is responsible for cleaning the house too. But as a disabled person, I’m acutely aware that people have limits. I’m giving hubby the benefit of the doubt here. He could be a lazy slacker who thinks cleaning’s fer womenfolk, but it’s much more logical to conclude he doesn’t have the time or energy. Thus, daughter and husband need to reach a compromise, and the most obvious compromise is… get outside help.)
Here’s a few more quotes and thoughts.
(Dinsdale)
(CookingWithGas) “No. Not if they’re not asking for it.”
I chose this quote but there are many others applicable: I didn’t want to review the whole thread for examples of people saying to mind your own business.
Not everybody knows how to ask for help. A lot of things can hinder you: guilt, shame, pride. More importantly, politely offering help is harmless. (Emphasis on politely!) A little sincerity goes a long way. If you care about a person and you legitimately want to help them, that’s compassion and generosity, not nosiness! Friends and family help each other all the time. It’s normal. Don’t be afraid to ask for help, and don’t be afraid to offer it!
Yes, it’s possible the daughter doesn’t want help. If she refuses the offer, then drop it. That’s the polite thing to do. Don’t harass, don’t nag. But she already accepted the help once, so chances are good that she’d be thrilled to have an extra pair of hands. Life is hard. It’s a blessing to have someone else’s support.
(Dinsdale) “If they were brought up in a socioeconomic situation where clutter and filth were the norm, I would understand it more.”
Again, there’s many quotes I could use to illustrate this next point, but I’m lazy and picked the first one I saw. Sue me.
Dinsdale, you seem like a well-adjusted, functional, physically and psychologically healthy person. That’s wonderful, but a few of your statements whisper of naivete.
Growing up in a tidy house doesn’t make you a tidy person. Nor does growing up in a messy home make you a slob. It can, but not always. Parents can try to instill certain values in their children, but there’s no guarantee they’ll pick them up.
One thing that happens quite often, in my experience, is that a person’s parents will have made them clean regularly, but they never become self-motivated. Some talk of “rebelling” against a neat upbringing, but it’s not a conscious decision most of the time. When tidiness isn’t in your nature, you need to find a reason to care, you have to make yourself care. Cleaning isn’t fun; you do it because you have to. “I have to, I need to” isn’t a motive. If you’ve got something holding you back, it’s even harder because your motivation has to overcome that hinderance.
You said that your daughter said she never “learned how to clean,” and you said “it’s not rocket science.” But motivating yourself to do things that are necessary actually is rocket science, metaphorically, for some people. I have days where I can hardly motivate myself to exist; I don’t want to be, it’s too hard, it’s pointless. I have to convince myself that there’s inherent value in taking care of myself, and some days… I can’t. I try to tell myself why it’s important, but all that comes back from my brain is “I don’t believe you.” I tell myself that I need to eat food to live, and my brain says “I’m not that hungry, my stomach’s not growling yet, I don’t even feel faint.” I tell myself that I need to clean my room, but the answer is “I’ll feel bad whether I clean or not, it’s easier to ignore it, wading through the garbage isn’t that difficult…”
I’m rambling again. I hope that you get my point. You don’t know what’s going on in your daughter’s head. Logical reasoning is useful, but it’s often no replacement for emotional drive. Knowing the benefits of a clean house (or the detriments of a filthy house) is pure logic, and it can’t instill the emotional motivation or desire to clean. That has to come from somewhere a lot deeper… and harder to reach, in some cases.
This is really good stuff, JustBree.
I also want to reiterate something said earlier (I forget by whom) that if you don’t have a place for things then putting things away is a really hard task (rocket science indeed). It’s possible to grow up in a home where a place for everything was already established and then, when in your own home, have difficulty choosing or organizing a place for things. Maybe that is the aspect the daughter and SIL have trouble with, as exemplified by the episode with where the vase goes (no one knows). Someone to help ORGANIZE might be just as useful as someone to clean.
JustBree: you said much better than I would have, a lot of what I hoped to say.
It’s very easy to say “Well, you just do it, because it needs doing”. I’m sorry, but “just do it” is not an available option, because I can’t “just” anything. (Well, more specifically, I do “just do” very easily some things that most others find difficult - but they’re not the things mentioned in this thread.)
Near the end, you said “You don’t know what’s going on in your daughter’s head” - I’d expand and simplify that to “You don’t know what’s going on”. People assuming they know what’s going on, have poor judgment.
Because I’m severely depressed am dying of cancer and have no energy to do anything. Anything at all Everything, any task is overwhelming and insurmountable. I hate my life…
Our house is tidy and organized, but we’re not proactive about doggy fur removal. With five shedding dogs it is impossible to keep a fur-free environment and I’ve better things to do than vacuum five times a day. When visitors come we do what we can and issue a general “if ya can’t stand fur, don’t come over.”
I find this weeds out the good from the bad visitors (smiley).
My BFF’s house is always white-glove inspection clean. She talks incessantly about how dirty and broken down/out-of-fashion it is, but it’s not at all; she is always uber-anxious about housekeeping and doesn’t enjoy her house nearly as much as I do mine.
OTOH, my bro and SIL’s house could be on “Hoarders,” but they could care less (my mother cares VERY much, it’s a house she remodeled and they bought from her). I can bear to be in their home about 10 minutes before smell/filth drives me out. I didn’t eat any homemade dishes they brought to the family reunion last week, the image of their kitchen sickens me.
Oddly, my BFF’s office (we’re colleagues) is a horrible mess and mine is obsessively, impeccably clean. I can’t work in a disorderly space.
Not so oddly, I’ve many colleagues with hoarded offices – lots of towering stacks of unreturned student papers. Two guys in our department were cited by the fire marshal for fore hazards and their offices were forcibly cleaned out.
I truly worry about the priorities of anyone with a 3 year old and a tidy house. Unless you have a SAHP or daily help AND a house large enough for dedicate kid space, I don’t see how a healthy environment can foster both.
There is a difference between dirty and cluttered. Dirty is food left out, grime (or worse) in the bathroom, dirty dishes piling up for days. Cluttered is toys and mail scattered around. Dirty is something to worry about, cluttered is not, imho.
Agreed. The OP’s daughter has a job, a three-year old, and a broken foot. One shouldn’t expect the house to be neat and tidy.
How does it “get trashed”? If it is by being used, well, as I told Dad the first time I needed to change the needle in the record player and he complained about my wearing it down “well, that’s because I use it! You use things, they get used!” Once you’ve given it to them it’s their item; they choose how to use it.
There’s two very different situations there. If I give money to someone as a gift, it’s basically because I can’t think of anything more targeted, so whatever target they choose is good (hopefully it won’t be anything actively harmful). OTOH, if they’ve specifically asked me for that money for a specific project and spend it in something else - they just don’t get money from me again, ever (unless the something else was a life-saving measure: asking for 5K to fix the bathroom and dropping 3K in a pair of glasses and a set of curtains does not constitute “life-saving”).
Some parents give birth to their children. Some behave as if the kid was eternally stuck in the birth canal; they never let go. You need to let go. Of your daughter’s life, and of any gifts you ever make her, whether monetary or otherwise.