Sorry. Would you care to prove the incorrectness in what I posted?
The underlying foundation of any religion that has ever been invented by man is the exploitation of the fear of death that is universal to humanity. A comparative study of religions is all that it takes to see that.
Dob, don’t make blanket statements about people without knowing they are correct. If I were a liberal, I would immediately be screaming about how you lied, but I’m not, so I will simply state that in my case, your statement is totally incorrect.
As I have stated before in both this thread and others, religions exploit the fear of death. The gullibility comment is based on the fact that people actually believe what religions tell them, whereas if they really stopped and put some serious thought into it, they would see that they are being lied to. And in many cases, they see it and choose to ignore it. Nothing insulting about it at all.
Okay. Willing to do some work?
Start with at least three religions, widely seperated by time and/or distance. I like to use Christianity, the sacrifices of the Aztecs and the Greek pantheon, but you may pick and choose as you will. Analyze them from a social and historical perspective and answer these questions:
Add in another religion of your choice. Then another. You’ll come up with the same answers on every one.
BTW, in fair warning, I should tell you that if you do this seriously and with an open mind toward learning, it’s not going to be an overnight task. It will take you some serious effort.
Gotcha, but I think I missed the step between her saying that religion is something to hold onto and trying to force that on others. Anyhow, it brings back memories of **The Best Little Whore House in Texas ** and Burt Reynolds line, “You can’t legislate morality.” Pure genius! 
Btw, I wasn’t agruing that Sagan was a deist, it was more of a logic step (using his quote to define theists and deist) and lead into my next statement.
You can talk all you want about how religions are the “opiate of the masses” and brainwash people and fulfill the needs of lonely, gullible people looking for sky-pixies and invisible men. That is not really what the OP was about though, was it?
The question is really about faith, not religion. You cannot have a religion (at least one of the recognized major organized religions) without faith but you can have faith without a religion. To have faith in something beyond what we can see in our known universe is a great ability. Expand your horizons to multiple possibilities. I cannot limit myself to saying, “No way. I can’t see it, touch it, smell it, taste it, or hear it so just screw it.” Just because something has not been proven or defined does not mean that it does not exist or will never be proven. Atheists are so black and white cynical that they want a talking pillar of fire or a Babelfish to appear that would be proof of a creator’s existence. God is not going to give you his phone number (unless you believe in Dial-a-Prayer).
Scientists keep talking about “dark matter ” that will help to explain the missing mass in the universe. They have no idea if it does exist; it is theoretical and supposedly makes up 23% of the universal mass. Another 73% of the mass is made up of “dark energy”. There is some evidence of its existence based on gravitational effects but no concrete proof. Yet they have faith that what they are looking for is out there. You can accept that 96% of the universe’s mass is made of this dark matter and energy but you can’t accept the possibility that there might be a creator out there?
Current physics theories cannot rely on their existence, yet scientists are currently searching for magnetic monopoles (essentially a hypothetical particle with only one magnetic pole). No proof, no evidence, yet they keep looking.
Phenomena occur throughout this wondrous and amazing universe that we have no explanation for yet . While science searches for answers, I believe it is foolish to rule out the possibility that there may be other explanations. Maybe it the universe was just made that way.
Faith is the issue here. Not religion. One of my favorite movies is “Dogma” because it states that people can take an idea and build a belief system around it that humans then totally screw up. As Rufus the thirteenth apostle said about beliefs, ”I think it’s better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier.” I have an idea that there might be something more than us. I would like to believe but until I can be sure, I’ll stick with the idea that it is possible.
Not sure what your asking here. Are you arguing against religion or against God? Im not a fan of religion…have said so many times…I think religion causes more death and strife than any other establishment out there. But religion is not faith. I have faith…not religion.
Yes im willing do some work…just want to make sure we are debating the same thing.
I was responding in more general terms. She just said that I was unhappy and miserable by definition - that was enough to set me off. The equivalent would be for an atheist to say all theists are downtrodden by the bootheels of theology - which not even our more enthusiastic brethren say.
Dude…anything’s possible. Monkeys might fly out of my butt. That’s a far cry from “faith” or “belief”. I know of no atheists who rule out the possibility of a higher power. There’s just no reason to believe there is one based on the evidence at hand. If you really want to open your mind, picture a universe with no beginning, no end, and no purpose. Picture the random, accidental formation of life on a random, accidental planet.
Yeah, When my Dad died the minister of the little church he went to those last few years of his life was designated to head the service. I knew he couldn’t pass up the opportunity to try and “save” people. Sigh. Fortunately he wasn’t too heavy handed. I decided someone who had known Dad as more than a church member for a few years ought to speak to his friends and family so volunteered myself.
I agree. I give more credit to those who do good for others because they believe it’s how life should be lived, rather than in anticipation of some future reward. I’d like to see theists and atheists respect each others rights to choose.
Think about it. If a guy is a real credit to the community is his contribution less valuble because he believes in God. If someone is beside a Christian helping to feed the hungry and provide shelter for the homeless does it matter if that person is an atheist? Not a whit.
You said it was too bad that her life seemed to have no meaning without supernatural beliefs. That seems to be the equivilent of what she said about atheists. My point is that it* isn’t* too bad for either the theist or the atheist whatever their belief if, the individual is being intellectually and emotionally honest about their own experience. It seems we have people on both sides of the arguement that look at those on the other side and sigh…“Isn’t that too bad”
Explain how that works for the Quakers if you’ve got a minute.
Hell no. There is no faith I know of in the existence of dark matter or dark energy. The concepts explain the observed nature of the universe, but it is accepted that they are not the only explanation. In the past theoretically predicted particles (like the neutrino) have been found, so it is thought that dark matter is likely to be found. But if it is not, then scientists will find another, better explanation for their observations.
I believe there is strong evidence for the existence of dark matter due to calculations of the masses of galaxies through observation of gravitational lensing, and the lack of stars and dust in these galaxies that would account for the observed mass. And they hope to create dark matter particles in new, higher energy, accelerators.
I wonder how many theists would still be theists if they approached the god problem with this mindset. I did. My default position was that god existed (though I admit I was having doubts.) I built several models of what the world would be like if god did exist and if the Bible were at least somewhat correct. None matched reality, so I became an atheist.
I admit that there are other reasons people believe in god unrelated to the evidence. But let’s not confuse things. And, no insult intended to you, it is amazing to me the number of people, even here, who just don’t get the way science operates. I don’t think many people can hold tentative hypotheses well. I’ve got training in this from programming - when I write code I have the tentative hypothesis that I know what I’m doing, but running test cases falsifies this a lot of the time.
Can’t disagree with you about this. I count myself as a non religious believer but I’m less patient with those who want to insist that their view has to be the only valid one. That applies also to smug atheists who like to imply that anyone with spiritual beliefs must be some kind of dolt. {Not implying anything about your attitude}
After reading “The End of Faith” I decided it is time to challenge rather than politely ignore, religious beliefs that intrude into the lives of others. If someone is a good person I don’t care about their personal beliefs. If someone starts spouting doctrine as if they somehow have a handle on what God wants and thinks, then they’d better be prepared for an earfull. Useing their beliefs as an excuse to persecute and judge others irritates the crap out of me.
Actually, it was.
No, it just qualifies you as gullible.
Given the implausibility of gods, nothing would convince me. I’d believe I was insane or the target of a massive fraud before I believed evidence of a god. It would be like seeing the Moon turn into a giant head and talk to me; I’d get a doctor, not a camera. The evidence that the world is natural is too great, there is no evidence a god is even possible, and religious people have a long history of seeing things that aren’t there. If someone has a religious experience ( including me ), I consider the fact that it’s religious makes it implausible.
There is some evidence it does exist, no reason it can’t exist, and it does not contradict the way the world works. That’s the opposite of religion.
Right; they are looking for proof, not declaring they exist and believing in them by faith. Again, the opposite of religion.
A belief that has always been proven wrong. and never produced anything useful or interesting; that’s the attitude that produces things like the Dark Ages.
You can’t have religion without faith; it’s one of the reasons I hold religion in contempt.
Have you seen some of the posters on here?!?!?
I can picture it. It is theoretically possible. Scientists right now are trying to create an artificial lifeform. They can recreate the DNA but have to put it into an existing, though emptied out, microbe.
I can accept the possibility that practically anything is possible. A singularity explodes, dispersing all matter and energy (yet in an unevenly distributed way), spreading more matter than anti-matter in all directions (some of which move at different velocities than others), until at some point there is enough mass (96% of which cannot be detected, just inferred) to pull everything back together into another singularity which explodes again in a never ending cycle. I can accept the possibility that maybe there is insufficient mass and everything flies further and further apart until eventually everything dies off and freezes. I can accept the possibility that there is no rhyme or reason for the way things are. But, I can also accept the possibility that there is a cause we cannot fathom, a being/force/intelligence beyond our comprehension. Can you?
Not without evidence. Besides, what’s the point ? If we can’t comprehend it, it does not affect us and we can’t even detect it, how can we even talk or think meaningfully about it ? We can’t even call it a “god” if it’s that incomprehensible. It’s both implausible and pointless.
The human imagination can dream up lots of stuff. The trick is to be able to see the difference between imagination and faith. I know my husband comes home at 5:15 every night and has for years. I have faith he’ll do it again tomorrow. The imaginary power you speak of has done nothing that would give a reasonable person cause to believe there’s anything there.
What you have, my friend, is HOPE.
Was that really necessary? :rolleyes: No need to give me that holier than thou attitude. 
As I have said repeatedly, I am not talking about religion, I am talking about faith. I can’t stand most organized religions because of their insistences that they are the only correct answer and that everyone else is wrong and condemned to an eternity of licking the bathroom floor at Grand Central Station. I am talking about being willing to open my mind to possibilities. I refuse to dismiss out of hand what I don’t know. I continue to search. I have read the Torah, the Koran, and the King James Bible. I have read Kant, Nietzsche, Plato and Socrates. I have read Hawking, Sagan and more Scientific American issues than I can count. I don’t have the answer but I have a lot of questions. And until an answer to everything comes along, I will not discount any possibility.
The two sets of things you listed are in different realms- Hawking and Sagan may not be right about everything, but they base their arguments on proven facts. Religious texts ask you to believe on faith alone, as there’s no factual basis (at least scientifically) for their metaphysical ideas.
I understand that. What I am is saying is that I refuse to limit myself. Science, philosophy, religious writings all work to give me a broader view of existence. If all I ever ate was peanut butter and refused to try broccoli I would never know what I was missing (I tried brocolli, BTW, and discovered I hate it). If I only read the Bible, I would never get a different view of how other religions view things and would begin to believe the literal view of it. If I only read science articles, I would never learn about what the majority of the world believe and would be lost in my appreciation of classic art and literature (try reading Pilgrim’s Progress or Dante’s Inferno without knowing the Bible). If I only read philosophy, I could question existence but have little to bolster my arguments.
Don’t fence me in. Let me roam wide open plains of knowledge, exploring everywhere, seeking answers, finding puzzles, look for solutions. My final answer is not “God” (sorry Regis), it is still “I don’t know yet. But I’m looking as hard as I can.”
Please clarify. Are you saying that religion never produced anything interesting?