Why do people think federal employees are overpaid?

A big factor in whether privatization saves money is which retirement system the replaced employees are covered by.

The CSRS (Civil Service Retirement System) covers people hired before 1984, and the FERS (Federal Employees Retirement System) is for the rest of us.

CSRS offered a much larger guaranteed annuity. FERS offers about half as much guaranteed as CSRS, and basically replaces the difference with increased participation in the Thrift Savings Plan, basically a 401k for federal employees.

So the cost to the government is much less for CSRS than FERS. (For a while, when you could get good return on the TSP funds, it looked like FERS employees would do about as well in retirement as CSRS folks, but that is definitely not the case today).

If you include the cost to the government of a federal employee’s retirement, CSRS employees are much more expensive than FERS employees. And since the last CSRS employees were hired 27 years ago, their numbers are dwindling compared to FERS employees.

Bottom line: replacing civil servants with contractors is less likely to save money than it used to be.

This should read: So the cost to the government is much more for CSRS than FERS.

I’m about to retire from the Federal Govt with 37 years of service, 11 on active duty. The main reason I’m retiring now is a Reduction in Force (RIF) - our command is losing 30% of its billets. I have tons of experience and seniority so I wouldn’t be touched by the actual RIF process, but I decided to go in the hopes that one of the younger engineers would keep the job I’d have held.

In all my years, I’ve seen good govt workers and total wastes. I’ve seen people put in hours without putting them on their time cards and I’ve seen people sneak out early on a regular basis. I’ve seen people go above and beyond their job requirements, and I’ve seen people sleeping at their desks. I personally knew a guy who was fired and a woman who decided that she’d take the hint and resign before she was fired. I can honestly say that the organization I’m leaving has far more hard-working, dedicated professionals than slackers.

It doesn’t matter what anyone says. You can think I’m a slacker who’s suckled too long at the government teat. I know what I’ve done over the years and I know for a fact I’ve made a difference in the world. I feel no guilt taking my FERS pension. But I won’t whole-heartedly recommend anyone take a govt job - the aggravation on so many levels just isn’t worth it any more.

Seconding what FairyChatMom said. I took early retirement from a Federal job nearly five years ago, partly for personal reasons and partly because I’d been noticing an increase of the past few years of people who were slacking off because they knew they could get away with it without having to worry about being fired. The work still got done, although I sometimes wonder how my leaving affected that, since I was generally one of the ones who picked up the slack. (More than once I’d returned to work after vacation to find that only the “priority” cases in my workload had been done, and I would have to spend the next week playing catch up with the unprocessed cases. After which, I would have to “help out” some of the people who were behind in their work, even though they hadn’t been on vacation.

Re: replacing government workers with private contractors. Here’s how that little charade works, and believe me, it saves the taxpayer nothing.

While most government contracts are low bid, this is not the only criteria, and is usually for one-time projects. When contractors bid for a services contract, qualifications are taken into consideration, and this is where the shell game takes place.

A contractor submits his bid package, which has to include the resumes of key employees, from the project manager down to the lower level managers and possibly even further. This sounds good on the surface of things, but what happens is that bidders often submit packages that contain resumes of people that don’t even work for them anymore. Or, they submit resumes of current employees that they have no intention of assigning to this project.

Upon awarding of the project, the contractor, in order to maximize profit, starts filling positions with people who may or may not be qualified to do the work, particularly in the labor and technical positions, and paying them much less than the bid documents indicate. If the government objects, the contractor may claim that this is the best person they can find for the job, or that the person’s experience outweighs the lack of education, credentials or certifications. There can be some back and forth, with the government crying ‘foul’, but in the end the job has to get done and the government will concede with the stipulation that they have right of review if the work isn’t getting done. This personnel shuffle can go on for years. Contracts with union labor employees are a little more difficult to fudge, but in that case, the bidder will do his best to get by with fewer management personnel than are called for, and run the same shell game.

In addition to unqualified people, contractors will substitute substandard equipment and materials. This is particularly so in janitorial and maintenance contracts, and until GSA receives enough complaints, little will be done about it. A janitorial contractor can keep switching products almost indefinitely and things don’t ever get any better.

Anything that is not specifically called out in the contract language, or that is somewhat vague, will cost extra. While the government has gotten better about making sure contracts are all-inclusive, oversights are inevitable, and a contractor will charge exorbitant rates to provide extra services (change orders).

Eventually, work quality suffers. Frequent turnovers in personnel destroys continuity and undermines confidence. As word gets out that this contractor is an asshole to work for, employee quality takes a significant downturn, and before long you can even have dangerous situations where, for instance, someone with no boiler certifications and minimal experience is responsible for a large heating plant. Poor maintenance performed at improper intervals shortens equipment life. When large, expensive pieces of equipment fail, or roofs start leaking, or any number of other things fail to function, it’s not the contractor who pays to replace them unless gross negligence can be proven (a difficult chore).

Bonafides: My wife was a property manager for GSA and saw this going on all the time. Trying to manage contracts that somebody else put into place without doing due diligence was the most stressful part of her job. I worked for a couple of government contractors and saw what was being done firsthand. Believe me, the government takes a bath on these.

Playing devil’s advocate, when people see things like this it reinforces their preconceived ideas: You mean that TPTB think that they can cut 30% from your division/department and still get the job done? So why have they been running at such an excess for years, costing the taxpayers money?

Another fed checking in. Here’s the deal, jtgain: Taxpayers and Congress are all in an uproar so RIFs occur to appease them. Then half or less the employees are left doing the work, which by the way does not decrease. Time goes by, TPTB note that work isn’t getting done as quickly or efficiently. Hiring phase starts again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I’ve got a couple months shy of 28 years of service and I’ve watched this happen over and over and over again.

I can’t speak for all federal agencies of course; this is just what has happened in mine (Department of the Army).

I won’t go into what’s happening at my organization. It isn’t pretty and we’re going to suffer for a looong time.

Ah, the “essential workers” issue. There is a difference between what an office can get by with on a short-term emergency basis of just keeping (just keeping the lights on and getting the ambulances to the crash sites), and what that office has to do on a regular on-going basis to fully complete the assigned tasks.

Or is this a question of changes in direction or policy? Sometimes you can re-focus or re-purpose a team and get the same ultimate results done with fewer people, by cutting out steps that aren’t really needed. Do we really need 9 levels of approval, or might 6 levels work?

Well, the one thing you don’t win is the Reading Comprehension Award.

In my experience in the corporate world and with corporate layoffs, most things may still get done, but the lesser tasks don’t. Processes change.

For instance, I have two friends who right out of college in 1988 went to work for IBM. I asked them how many layers of management between them and the CEO. They figured out that there were fourteen layers. So when IBM began to lay off thousands of people in the nineties, whole layers of management were eliminated. There are still new college graduates working there. But there are fewer layers of managers above them. (They no longer work there, so I couldn’t tell you how many layers there are now.)

Yeah because there are no lazy people who don’t pull their wait in the private sector. Please.

This will probably head to Great Debates or the pit but the answer is the Public Sector has been getting reasonable cost of living increases since 1980 that the Private sector hasn’t been getting. The average worker in the private sector makes less today when adjusted for inflation than he did 30 years ago.

Instead of questioning why that is in a time when private companies are literally making the biggest profits in the history of mankind, we are being asked to support the Public sector being dragged down to our level. Which many are doing gleefully.

To illustrate with a parable: 12 cookies are placed in front of a CEO, a Public sector worker and a Private sector worker. The CEO takes 10 for himself, hands 2 to the Private sector worker and says “Watch out. That Government guy wants yours.”

Same to you. Figurative language seems to go over your head. :slight_smile:

We’ve had some jobs lost to attrition and lay-offs. I would not say we have increased efficiency. Just that the rest of us have to do more, in addition to our original job duties, with no changes in pay. Do you know what that does to morale? It doesn’t go up, obviously. Also, it makes for a strange machine. People who aren’t qualified to do things end up being stuck with them. Because they feel inadequate in performing those duties, they begin to loathe them and put them way on the backburner. Until suddenly, some time later, it’s discovered someone’s dropped the ball. Guess who it is? It’s the person who had to take on job responsibilities they didn’t sign up for and hate with the white heat of a million suns. They get fired and the situation is made even worse.

When one of my coworkers left a few years ago, my boss wanted to reassign his job to me…as if we were completely interchangeable. I’m a numbers geek, with a background in field biology. I see the forest before the trees. I have always been like this and don’t think I could change even if I wanted to. The other guy was the complete opposite. He reviewed reports all day and had a background in analytical chemistry. He was required, as a part of his job, to see the trees–no, the leaves!–and NOTHING ELSE. And that was why he was excellent at his job. (He got fired for stupid stuff…nothing related to his competency.)

But my boss just saw a gaping hole in the organization structure and knew he needed a body to fill it. Fortunately, my blunt honesty worked in my advantage and he managed to put me in another hole (one that came later) that is much better suited to my abilities. But if that other hole hadn’t been there and I hadn’t agreed to replace that guy, I would have been fired. My boss didn’t tell me this, but I know it’s true.

If I had taken on that guy’s duties, though, I would have been miserable and would have eventually quit. Which would have made things even worse for the organization. There’s a reason why most people apply to specific positions and don’t just send in a cover letter saying, “I’ll take anything!”

No, they’re cutting 30% of the work we do/did, accepting fewer tasks from the combattant commanders, and completely eliminating a big chunk of work that we’d developed over the last 6 or 7 years, deciding, in light of budget cuts, that they’d rather have us do our core workload. Now, what one should rightfully be pissed off about is that while 30% of the workerbee billets have been cut, oddly enough, 15 of the 17 the GS-15s managed to keep their jobs. Funny how that happened…

You’ve just named three programs programs that do more harm than good, even though they sound good on paper. Most of these programs are really agricultural subsidy programs whichare really subsidies for corporations like ADM. While we are at it, we should get rid of the ethanol subsidy, which uses enough corn to feed a small village to run one SUV.

I’m not prepared to argue this point, at least not here. Suffice it to say, I completely disagree with you.

The corn used is silage and not fit for human food unless you’re starving to death.

Everybody believes that everybody else makes too much money.

federal pay? where to start? The MDs are severely overpaid, the secretaries etc are severely overpaid. the Ph.D.'s are severely underpaid. and then there are all the people in between. some of which are severely underpaid and some the opposite.

even between MDs and Ph.D.s depending on which agency you work for your salary vacillates enormously!

yes, I’m a Ph.D but in another sector of govt I would be making way more money. people in industry are making upper 6 figures while i am doing their job for them.

otoh, is it worth the job security to make so much less? for me yes. i’m a single female provider for my family. it wasn’t worth the extra money to have the chance of being laid off at the next corporate aquistion. been there done that. at least i can count on my job even if it is at a reduced rate from industry.

and there are many people in the agency that i work with that really care about the public. at least until politicians get involved…

I’m assuming that corn suitable for humans would be planted without the ethanol subsidy. I did some quick back of the spreadsheet calculations and came up with somewhere between 500 and 900 million people could be fed with the acreage used for ethanol. We are using over 5 billion bushels of corn for ethanol now and it actually exceeds all the corn being raised for livestock in the US.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/77dfcd98-ac9f-11e0-a2f3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1SWOojeOw