To me, driving is at best a chore, on a par with vacuuming or cleaning the cat box. It’s something that has to get done, and that I’d rather do with the least possible effort.
I wouldn’t welcome any change to vacuuming or cleaning the cat box that required me to expend more effort to get the same result. Why would I want driving to require more effort? I don’t care about having control over those chores, either. I just want them to be done. If someone else did them, thus depriving me of all control over them but making it so I don’t have to do them, I’d be happy.
I’ll be one of the first in line for a self-driving car, when they come out. If one of you people who enjoyed driving would be willing to volunteer to drive people like me around, that would be fine, too.
In conflict with a previous poster, I have felt that the old ('50s) engines had a broader range of torque; newer ones with narrow range require a closer match with gear. I used to get into 2nd as soon as possible, using it for various conditions, sharp corners, hills, until reaching road speed. Autos want to be shifting constantly. Expert manual shifting: when you change gears, while you’re in neutral in between, change the engine speed to match the speed needed in the new gear. Making the clutch moderate between parts going different speeds causes clutch wear and a jerky ride. (If you do this perfectly you don’t need the clutch - don’t try this at home!)
I was responding to Machine Elf not really making a statement about driving in general. Yes, excepting the disabled, everyone would do just fine with manual transmissions if that is all that existed. We’d all do just fine without most of the convenience features on modern automobiles. That’s not the point.
The reason this argument gets people fed up is that manual transmission aficianados tend to accuse automatic users as being lazy, ignorant, and now according to you, inhuman :rolleyes:. The fact is that we have different values. You have a deep need to feel in control over the gear shifting portion of your automobile. I don’t. I perfectly fine letting “the machine” do the shifting, especially since it does a great job at it. I’m also fine letting the machine control a number of other features in my car’s operation. It is a personal preference. My previous post just listed why I have that preference.
Well, I think the question is really “How come Europeans drive stick shifts”, and that question has been answered - it was originally for economic reasons, which led to a feedback mechanism which made and continues to make manuals more popular in Europe..
All things being equal, I thing most new drivers would opt for some kind of automatic transmission. But things weren’t equal back when car ownership was taking off, and here we are. I don’t think the points from enthusiasts about better control and so on is relevant. Most people aren’t enthusiasts, automatics are not hugely inferior to manuals in those regards, and most driving is mundane anyway.
I don’t think anyone is taking issue with your mindset. In fact, I’d wager that the majority of people who drive a manual-equipped car are like you. The bristling and backlash is against the loud minority who go on and on about how they “can’t understand” why other people don’t like manuals, or the other put-downs about “laziness” or whatever.
it’s kind of like Jeff Foxworthy said (paraphrased) “southerners are no dumber overall than the rest of the country, it’s just that we can’t keep the dumbest of us off of the TV.”
For what it’s worth, both of my cars are stick shift, and I made the conscious choice to go that way with both of them. One wasn’t even offered with an automatic, and the other I ordered with a stick. But at least I have the honesty to say there are situations here and there where I would prefer to have an auto. stop and go traffic is the big one. or when traffic’s just barely crawling along, slower than I can idle in first gear. then it’s constantly clutch-in/clutch-out.
A manual, both clutch and non-clutch driven ones, will offer more control, in the sense that the driver can better relay their intentions to the car. On a course, where the drivers intentions, demands, and rate of speed/environmental change are typically faster than a normal auto gearbox, it makes perfect sense to be able to have manual control, so that you can preempt the oncoming situation.
The thing is, in most daily driving, it’s just not necessary, and most people try to overextend the manual advantage, by creating situations where it’s unique. You’re 100% right-- your pedals, steering, and gearbox all work great, within the realm of what they’ll most likely be used for. By design, most US roads and traffic systems are designed to be predictable and consistent, to meet the majority demand. So again, the proliferation of autos simply makes sense and is expected.
I believe the other major breakdown, is people somehow relate car control to overall driver skill, which while related, should have a clear distinction in these types of debates. It’s a given, than in today’s market, most people who opt to drive clutch-manuals, are probably driving enthusiast, and so the relationship lends to a more attentive and dedicated driver.
However, control over gear selection, by itself, doesn’t make them skilled or even good drivers. Again, most seasoned manual drivers can shift as easily as they walk. These same drivers would easily be in over their heads under actual performance demands, though, which is when the distinction above, comes into play.
that’s the other thing. for spirited driving or driving on the track, a manual (or at least full manual control e.g. a manumatic or DCT/DSG) is absolutely the way to go. an experienced driver knows the car well enough to be able to know what gear to be in at pretty much any point.
but for non-performance driving, the PCM/TCM are far, far better than any human at knowing what gear to be in for optimum fuel economy.
A friend was coming to the US from Spain and had only driven manual stick shift cars. (This was about 1990). He had never driven an automatic. When he rented the car over the phone, he specifically mentioned several times he wanted a manual.
When he arrived to pick up the car at the rental agency, he found that it was an automatic transmission. He then noticed, on the the passenger side seat, was carefully placed the Owner’s Manual.
I now return you to your regular AUTOMATIC Best - No, MANUAL Best argument currently in progress.
I learned to drive in high school using an automatic transmission. I don’t think any driving schools in America even have manual transmission cars (I could be wrong). The advantage of learning on an automatic is that you can focus more on the rules of the road rather than the particulars of using the clutch and stick shift correctly.
My parents taught me how to drive a stick after I got my learner’s permit. When I sold my old manual transmission Honda to a friend, I needed to teach him how to drive it.
Few, if any, “elementary” driving schools (i.e., those which teach 16-year-olds the fundamentals, in order for them to obtain a driver’s license) probably do anymore. Performance or racing schools undoubtedly do still have cars with manual transmissions, but the reasons for that have already been beaten to death in this thread.
I may have been pre-emptive with someone taking issue with my mindset.
But I’ll say those who “don’t understand” why others prefer to drive a stick probably won’t understand no matter how it’s explained. Just as I’ll never understand, no matter how rationally it’s explained, how someone can like/appreciate rap music.
For the record, I don’t put down those who prefer automatics. My Camry is an automatic, and every car I’ve had for the last 10-15 years has been an auto shifter. But if I were getting a new car that’s not a family car (is the term “family car” still used? If not generally, it still is as far as I’m concerned), I’d seriously consider a stick. But I realize I’m in the minority, and that’s okay by me.
The scenario you’re describing is a lot of shifting, which implies city driving. I’m all for grabbing sip of something while cruising the highway with sparse traffic, but in the city, we’d all appreciate it if you’d just focus on the driving task, thank you very much. This is true regardless of whether you’re driving a stick or an auto.
Is there really no time before or after your drive to drink that coffee? Must the coffee be consumed while you drive? It’s awfully hard to simultaneously hit the horn and steer through an evasive maneuver when there’s a cup of coffee in one hand.
I guess I can pity you in the same way that I pity everyone who ends up doing mindless chores from which they derive no enjoyment. I don’t enjoy driving in bumper to bumper traffic, so I never do it. I bike, walk, or take public transportation for that. My car is only for the fun drives and I can’t remember the last time I wasn’t having fun with my car.
Yet apparently the world is filled with people who buy cars, drive them every day, use up valuable non-renewable resources and pollute the air, all under protest.
What world do you live in? The vast majority of Americans live in circumstances in which we couldn’t hold jobs, or go to school, or run errands, or go where we want to go to have fun without cars. Cars are a utility to us, not a toy.
I’m guessing that your job is reasonably close to home, and I envy you for that.
I’m also guessing that your family is small enough that a trip to the supermarket can come home with you on the bus. I envy the bus system in your area, but I’ll keep my opinions about living alone to myself.
