Yes, but that may be because of differences in culture. One culture has a history of slavery during which they were severely punished (or killed) for learning how to read and the other has a thousands year old culture of academics being the most visible method of social mobility. But I’ve been accused of racism and bigotry for pointing out this fairly apparent difference in culture because all they see is me saying that black culture is somehow inferior (and its some sort of victim blaming because I am somehow blaming blacks for the culture they inherited from centuries of slavery and segregation).
I think that it would be fair to give a reasonable preference to a population that has a legacy of slavery and segregation. A legacy that de-emphasized (if the death penalty doesn’t de-emphasize something, I don’t know what does) academics for centuries and a more recent history of segregation and prejudice that made education less valuable to a black student than a white student. Mainstream America did not value education in blacks the way they did in whites, in fact I don’t think white professional firms did much in the way of hiring educated black professionals until within my lifetime.
I don’t know if it should be quite as much of a preference as some schools provide these days but it doesn’t seem unfair to provide some sort of preference.
Thank you for responding. I started out assuming I had NOT found something people were overlooking but now I’m starting to change my mind. I only have a high school education so usually when I think I’ve had some great insight it turns out to be something mundane (like the time I “invented” marginal tax brackets on Opalcat****'s SDMB offshoot board). But now it looks like I may have stumbled onto something here. I have yet to see any evidence that I am wrong to assume that Asians should not believe they are being hurt by Affirmative Action since they face discrimination in the form of a de facto cap on their proportion of admissions to institutions of higher learning that eliminating racial preferences would do nothing to resolve.
Savage!
Obviously the answer is to be found in cultural differences. However the ability of these racial differences to cross cultural barriers makes this harder to discern. Take the NBA. Over the last couple of decades the percentage of foreign players has increased making the league more “white” but more recently many of the foreign players representing European nations (and Canada and Australia) have come from their immigrant population including Tony Parker, Kyrie Irving, Joel Anthony, Samuel Dalembert, Andrew Wiggins, Evan Fournier, Rudy Gobert, Timothé Luwawu-Cabarrot, Joakim Noah, Dennis Schröder, Thabo Sefolosha, and Giannis Antetokounmpo (known as the “Greek Freak” but with both parents born in Nigeria). Having black foreign players contributes to the stereotype that blacks are better at basketball.
Too late! tomndebb taught me that quotas are unconstitutional over a decade ago. Some whites do learn. We can overcome our tendency to ignore our racial advantage if we pay attention and swallow the ego.
Why should people that don’t value education get any preference? Doesn’t it make sense to give the best education to those who value it the most and have shown they can take advantage of it? If black students can get the benefit of valuing education without actually doing it, why should their culture change to value it?
It’s important to note that affirmative action in college admissions no longer exists, thanks to SCOTUS. Instead, colleges may only take race into account as part of a broad consideration of diversity factors (such as age, socioeconomic background, and so forth).
Harvard has been accused of using race as an overly determinative factor in scoring diversity, but it doesn’t have an affirmative action program per se.
As an Asian (of the Southern subclass), I am perfectly okay with a diversity program that benefits African-Americans and other disadvantaged groups at the expense of Asians. We’re not underrepresented in higher education, and a university that is 40% Asian is not representative of everyday life (unless you’re planning to be a cardiologist).
There are far more pressing concerns for Asians with regard to race, such as representation in the arts and politics.
Would you be OK with a diversity program that disadvantages African-Americans to benefit Asians in politics?
I’m not. My son worked his ass off to get his 4.0, and to get on the Dean’s list. Why should that be downplayed or ignored because he is the wrong color?
Yes, I think that’s right. If you got rid of AA, this would not do anything resolve discrimination against Asians. Its not like the racists at Harvard (they’re not virulent racists, mind you but racist nonetheless) are going to say “Hey look 10% fewer blacks and Hispanics. Lets fill those seats up with all those Asians we’ve been keeping out.” They will just get more white because the 20% cap on Asians was 20% well before Harvard starting cranking up the AA. Harvard was something like 20% Asian, 5% black/Hispanic, and 75% white. Then they cranked up AA and Harvard was STILL 20% Asian, 20% black and Hispanic and 60% white. If they got rid of Affirmative action I suspect Harvard would STILL be 20% Asian.
I agree that its largely culture but some folks don’t want to hear that its cultural differences because it somehow denigrates other people’s culture. And you’re a racist if you think its culture.
I hope so because nothing is going to change without white people buying into it. Whites are still 75% of the country and their votes count as much as anyone else’s.
However I think some quotas are in fact good. I think that there are some places where a larger black police force, larger black judiciary, more black primary care physician, etc can make real differences in how we heal some of our nation’s long festering wounds. I think that if Harvard said “In light of the fact that the wealth that was used to create this university was largely built on genocide of the American Indians and the triangle trade that was the linchpin of slavery in this country, we are going to increase our freshman class by 10% and those seats will ONLY be open to the descendants of slaves and American Indians” I think that would be a good thing
In general, I agree that it should be as close to a meritocracy as we can achieve. But I do not begrudge a small set aside for the descendants of slaves and the victims of American genocide. I don’t know why we need to give a preference to Hispanics or legacies. I am also not convinced that giving an athletic preference to students that engage in really esoteric sports that are played by mostly white people. But for the victims of slavery and genocide, I can see how it would be just to set aside something to help create a critical mass of middle class blacks and American Indians.
I don’t know if their culture will change just by wagging our fingers at it.
This is regarding accepting the “best candidates”. You called it a social experiment after a “point”, which you’ve had the opportunity to define and cite but apparently can’t.
Maybe they do. Or maybe they accept the “best candidates”.
You are okay with with diversity programs that benefit other people at the expense of Asians because it is cheap for you to do. You are not a teenager who has worked his whole life for something that he is denied because of his skin color. Would you be willing for your boss to take 10% of your gross pay to give to black people or Indians?
Thousands of innocent asian kids are being discriminated against and you think the most pressing concern of Asians is getting Lucy Liu more work?
OK so explain how the Asian population at these schools has remained relatively flat over the last 30 years while their percentage in the general population has increased 4 fold?
Until and unless Asians have about the same chance of admission as a similarly situated white student, it doesn’t matter how much AA there is. It won’t work to reduce their admissions below the 20% cap.
The term “disparate impact” is often used in Voter ID cases, etc. Wonder if the same argument could be applied if one racial group has to score 400 points higher than another to get the same chance of admission.
I don’t think that’s how disparate impact works. It doesn’t really look at qualifications so much as it look at the end result. Asians are over-represented so disparate impact is not likely to be helpful there.