Why do so many people still believe in God?

[EverythingMadeEasier]

“You said you didn’t know what the God of the Gaps argument was, which tells me you have a very long road ahead of you to understand what it is that you are arguing here.”

I don’t understand what I am arguing because I didn’t read the Gods of the Gaps argument someone posted?

“and that you are thinking you are trailblazing on some very well trod road here.”

Trailblazing? I don’t think I’ve yet to say something that hasn’t been said before. Did I claim to?

“But then you gave a perfect definition of God of the Gaps, where what we don’t know and cannot currently explain is given over to the realm of the divine.”

I simply stated the only reason I know to answer Why do so many people still believe in God? Seems others are saying the same reason.

“The ignorance is that we don’t know everything about the universe.”

Right. And why does that mean we can then know something that is unknowable? Why does “we don’t know everything” mean “everything is possible”? It doesn’t to me. That doesn’t seem logical.

Can you tell me what flavor the number five has?
I say numbers don’t have flavors.
You seem to be saying we don’t know because we don’t know everything that is knowable.
Is that right?

“The reason is because there is no other explanation for the origin of the universe and life.”

Yes… for those that believe in god … as per the topic question.

“It’s the ONLY one at present outside of ‘the universe always existed…it was never created”

Right. (Quoting myself.)

“Either you are saying that the explanation for the origin of the universe and life is god, or you are just randomly stringing words together in a way that is mostly grammatically correct.”

There’s no god and the universe always existed.

“The only ones who would argue with that are theists that claim that atheism is a belief.”

Sounds fair.

“I don’t know that I would go that far. Theists make claims that god controls the weather, that god sends plagues and storms and other nasty things against sinners.”

I stated atheists … I was talking about atheists who are angry… they’re not really atheists, they’re more accurately anti-theists.

“No, and only angry theists claim that they do. How can I hate something that doesn’t exist?”

Exactly. So the angry atheists are not atheists … as I said.

“People can be inspired to do good by religion, but how do you know that they wouldn’t have been fantastic people without religion?”

I don’t get the logic. I said religion is good if it makes people more moral. How does that mean people can only be moral by means of religion?

“As for why atheists may be angry, it’s not that they are angry at god or the concept of god, they are angry at other people who try to control their lives by invoking their religion as justification.”

Atheists aren’t angry. Still the same point … they’re actually not atheists if they’re angry.

“No, the universe isn’t eternal either.”

It is. The universe means everything. A ‘framework that caused the universe’ must also be a part of the universe … the framework statement doesn’t make sense … there’s no nature to reality because the nature of everything would also be part of everything.

Just because we don’t know everything doesn’t mean that anything is possible. That’s not sensible.

There are infinite questions that have no answer. There’s no reason that all questions must have answers.

“How many meters long is my anxiety?”
“When did turnips stop being lazy?”
“How did the universe begin?”
These seem equally absurd.

[DocCathode]

@EverythingMadeEasier

I’m demonstrating that people who claim supernatural forces exist are con artists, as the Amazing Randy demonstrated for decades.

That would be where you claimed to emulate Randi

[crowmanyclouds]

@EverythingMadeEasier

{…} I stated atheists … I was talking about atheists who are angry… they’re not really atheists, they’re more accurately anti-theists.
{…}
Exactly. So the angry atheists are not atheists … as I said. {…}

Is there a third logical fallacy you’d like to use so we can credit you with the hat-trick?

[EverythingMadeEasier]

@Voyager

Because there are better things than YouTube videos about this, like books from real cosmologists and physicists. The End of Everything has a nice chapter on possible explanations from the universe. It is written by a cosmologist.

As I suspected you are referring to discussion of the question ‘the nature of the universe’ … I am speaking about the nature of reality … 'everything"… not Big Bang/alternative-multiverse options.

“Where did god come from? How did he do it? Why did he make a big universe just for us? Saying goddidit answers none of those questions, and is thus not an explanation.”

Right. Hence I’m an atheist.

“Yeah, but we should see his direct impact on the world, just like in the Bible. If he has no impact he is a deistic god, and him existing or not existing is equivalent in impact. If he does have impact it can be measured.”

Why … why should there be any impact if god existed. The Bible gives opinions about god.

“We know the origin of the materials like carbon and oxygen that make up life just fine.”
“In supernovas.”

That was would be the knowable cause … is that the origin? How did supernovas come to be?

“Talking about abiogenesis, evolution and the Big Bang in one breath is classic creationist garbage.”

? … giving two examples of events that are not really the ‘origin of materials’ is classic creationist garbage?

HUH? What kind of logic is that??

I think I’ll move on.

[DocCathode]

@EverythingMadeEasier

I think I’ll move on.

If you stay, please learn to use the quote tool

[Mijin]

Going back to the OP, the answer is that humans have a few psychological “kinks” that make us predisposed towards religion.

First and foremost is our tendency to anthropomorphize. Crops didn’t do so well this year? Some humanlike figure must be responsible, and the one thing we know about this person is he is more powerful than us.
We can discuss why humans have this quirk, but it’s not necessary within the context of this thread. It’s just necessary to point out that it’s there, and even theists would have to agree that humans have this quirk as every culture has both religion and myths about ghosts and fairies, you name it.

Secondly is the need for purpose, by which I don’t mean necessarily needing to believe the whole universe has a purpose. I just mean a personal purpose; that we are doing something more than just putting food on the table. Again, I don’t really need to say why humans have this bias, but I’d speculate that it’s just that we’re wired to organize into groups to achieve difficult goals. This is easily hijacked with the notion that if we join this or that religion group, we are working towards understanding the vast set of seemingly intractable problems that we observe.

Thirdly humans do not naturally think critically and objectively. There’s a reason that we had to invent (and then refine) the scientific method.

Finally, there’s memetics (memes). The religions that have survived are those that are best suited to spreading in human cultures. So we’re left with the ones where you’re expected to raise your children into the faith, where if you question the faith you are told you’ll go to hell or will be executed on earth for apostasy, etc etc.

Having said all this…I still find it weird that so many people in a country as developed as the US still believe this stuff though.

[k9bfriender]

@Mijin

Crops didn’t do so well this year? Some humanlike figure must be responsible, and the one thing we know about this person is he is more powerful than us.

It is also a figure you can appeal to. If you can figure out how to please the fertility god, then you get better crops. If you know it’s just the random chance of nature, then it feels as though you have lost control.

@Mijin

Having said all this…I still find it weird that so many people in a country as developed as the US still believe this stuff though.

I think it is due to the thing that you left out, the fear of death. Nearly everyone is afraid of death, one way or another, even if they don’t admit it or they feel that there are things worse than death. It’s still really bad, still really scary.

Knowing that this isn’t it, knowing that when you die you go to a new place that’s better than what we currently inhabit assuages that fear, and the more you believe, the more that fear subsides.

[RickJay]

Richard Dawkins further theorized that a significant part of religion’s popularity is the instinct people have for believing what their parents do. As he pointed out, there is an evolutionary benefit to believing your parents when they say to do something, because “don’t get close to lions” or “don’t eat those berries” are advice that will keep you from dying. The great, great majority of people who believe in a god or gods do so because they were told to do so as children.

Humans are thinking creatures and so this isn’t a universal truth; people raised in faith can abandon it, and people can adopt or switch faiths, but it’s certainly a big part of it.

[EinsteinsHund]

@k9bfriender

@Mijin

Having said all this…I still find it weird that so many people in a country as developed as the US still believe this stuff though.

I think it is due to the thing that you left out, the fear of death. Nearly everyone is afraid of death, one way or another, even if they don’t admit it or they feel that there are things worse than death. It’s still really bad, still really scary.

Knowing that this isn’t it, knowing that when you die you go to a new place that’s better than what we currently inhabit assuages that fear, and the more you believe, the more that fear subsides.

So do you think that people in countries like the Czech Republic, Sweden and most other Middle European countries are less afraid of death than Americans? I have my doubts.

[DavidNRockies]

@EinsteinsHund

So do you think that people in countries like the Czech Republic, Sweden and most other Middle European countries are less afraid of death than Americans? I have my doubts.

They probably have better – and almost certainly more affordable – health care, so they may have less reason to think about it.

[only partly tongue-in-cheek]

[k9bfriender]

@EinsteinsHund

So do you think that people in countries like the Czech Republic, Sweden and most other Middle European countries are less afraid of death than Americans?

No, I do not think that.

[EinsteinsHund]

@k9bfriender

No, I do not think that.

But according to your theory why Americans are more religious than other Western developed nations, one must draw that conclusion.

[k9bfriender]

One could choose to draw that conclusion. I do not think that one must.

If you look at the OP, you would see that it is a question as to why people believe in god. Unless you are making the claim that no one wants to go to heaven, then I really don’t understand what point you are trying to make here.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@k9bfriender

If you look at the OP, you would see that it is a question as to why people believe in god. Unless you are making the claim that no one wants to go to heaven

@EinsteinsHund’s point, if I understand it correctly, is that, if fear of death were the (or a major) reason that people believe in God, then you’d expect fear of death to correlate positively with belief and religiosity, with lower levels of fear of death in places with lower religiosity.

While we’re at it: fear of death might help to explain belief in an afterlife/heaven, but that’s not the same thing as belief in God. It’s true that they often go together and reinforce each other, but it’s entirely possible to believe in one without the other.

And for what it’s worth, I have no evidence but I wouldn’t be surprised if people are more motivated by concern about what happens to their loved ones after death than about what happens to themselves.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Thudlow_Boink

@EinsteinsHund’s point, if I understand it correctly, is that, if fear of death were the (or a major) reason that people believe in God, then you’d expect fear of death to correlate positively with belief and religiosity, with lower levels of fear of death in places with lower religiosity.

Couldn’t you argue for the other expectation likewise? Folks who believe they’re going to heaven may well tell you that they don’t fear death — possibly with the breezy confidence of a “not perfect, just forgiven” bumper sticker, maybe a t-shirt?

[k9bfriender]

@Thudlow_Boink

if I understand it correctly, is that, if fear of death were the (or a major) reason that people believe in God, then you’d expect fear of death to correlate positively with belief and religiosity, with lower levels of fear of death in places with lower religiosity.

Yes, I understand the point they were making as well, I just disagree with it. There are a number of cultural and historical factors that go into as well, as to how well that fear of death translates into indulging in a religion.

I’m certainly not looking forward to death, but that doesn’t make me religious.

But, we just had Easter here, and the whole point of that, the whole point of going in to communion and all that, is that you will be resurrected and live a life everlasting. If fear of death isn’t an important motivator for religion, then you pretty much ignore the majority of Jesus’s teachings.

Why does it matter that it’s harder for a Camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to make it to heaven if people don’t care about getting there? What comfort does Jesus give to his fellow condemned on the hill of Gethsemane when he tells them, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” if they were not afraid of death?

What was the entire point of Jesus’s death and resurrection if not to prepare for us a place in his father’s house?

The afterlife weighs heavily in Christian theology, I’m not really seeing how it is dismissed so cavalierly.

@Thudlow_Boink

fear of death might help to explain belief in an afterlife/heaven, but that’s not the same thing as belief in God. It’s true that they often go together and reinforce each other, but it’s entirely possible to believe in one without the other.

Personally, I think when we die, that’s it for these mortal coils. However, if I had to rank choice, I’d find it far more likely to wake up in a pod with the screen flashing “You have died, insert credits to continue” than to find myself at the pearly gates.

So, you don’t have to be a Christian, or even religious at all, to believe in an afterlife.

But you can’t be a Christian and not believe in resurrection and life everlasting, that’s kinda the whole point to it.

@Thudlow_Boink

And for what it’s worth, I have no evidence but I wouldn’t be surprised if people are more motivated by concern about what happens to their loved ones after death than about what happens to themselves.

That’s certainly a motivation as well, believing that Grandma is looking down on your from a nice fluffy cloud and will be there to greet you when it comes to your time is much more comforting than just thinking of her as worm food.

[EinsteinsHund]

@Thudlow_Boink

@EinsteinsHund’s point, if I understand it correctly, is that, if fear of death were the (or a major) reason that people believe in God, then you’d expect fear of death to correlate positively with belief and religiosity, with lower levels of fear of death in places with lower religiosity.

Yes, that was exactly my point.

[EinsteinsHund]

@k9bfriender

Yes, I understand the point they were making as well, I just disagree with it.

Then you misunderstood me. I also don’t think that non-religious people are less afraid of death than believers, I just made a logical deduction from your argument that doesn’t reflect this real situation.

ETA: I think that historically, religion surely is grounded on the fear of death, besides numerous other factors, but that this fear doesn’t play such a big role today for being religious like in historical times.

[k9bfriender]

@EinsteinsHund

Then you misunderstood me.

Disagreement doesn’t imply misunderstanding. It just means disagreement.

@EinsteinsHund

I also don’t think that non-religious people are less afraid of death than believers, I just made a logical deduction from your argument that doesn’t reflect this real situation.

I don’t think that that was a valid logical deduction. Comparing different countries levels of belief based on their fear of death is irrelevant to the point that I made, that you were attempting to refute with this comparison.

@EinsteinsHund

I think that historically, religion surely is grounded on the fear of death, besides numerous other factors, but that this fear doesn’t play such a big role today for being religious like in historical times.

Well, when you live a short, painful brutish life and then you die a painful death, you need what comforts you can get.

But the promise of resurrection is piled throughout Christianity, along with the concern over the fate of one’s immortal soul. The death and resurrection of Jesus, and what that means to his followers is an important part of Christian teachings. One of the most famous bible quotes, one you will see held up on signs at ball games, is John 3:16, " he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"

So, when the question is, “Why do so many people still believe in God?” either my point that some are motivated by the fear of death is valid, or you refute that with a claim that no one looks forward to an afterlife hangin with the angels.

Or maybe you misunderstood me when you interjected your objection.

[Mijin]

I think fear of death is an interesting subject, worthy of its own thread.

Because, while it’s a standard factoid that fear of death is one of our main motivators, I’m not sure it’s so simple, or even true.

In my own case I rarely think about death…since I have only ever experienced life, it somehow doesn’t feel like a real possibility. Ageing bothers me more, because I actually see it.

Now, it’s true that as I get older (and attend more funerals), it has started to become something I contemplate occasionally. But, if I were to drop dead tomorrow, I would die a person who hardly ever thought about death. Let alone plagued by fears of it.