Why do so many people still believe in God?

[k9bfriender]

@Mijin

Because, while it’s a standard factoid that fear of death is one of our main motivators, I’m not sure it’s so simple, or even true.

In my own case I rarely think about death…since I have only ever experienced life, it somehow doesn’t feel like a real possibility. Ageing bothers me more, because I actually see it.

If you regularly attended church, you may feel differently. Death is mentioned probably half a dozen times in a regular service, and is the main theme of Easter season services.

Anyway, I don’t think that it is the main motivator, but it is the one that hangs on the longest, and the one that motivates squeezing god, like putty, into any cracks in our understanding. Where did the universe come from, where did we come from, all these questions can be addressed, and maybe one day even answered, with science.

What happens to our “souls” when we die is something that likely will never be answered by science, or at least not to the satisfaction of someone who wants a particular answer, anyway.

After 400 years, we still debate the merits of Pascal’s Wager, which is entirely about the possibility of an afterlife.

Tell a YEC about evolution, and they will think you are full of crap. Tell a theist that there is no god, and they will happily argue with you for hours. Tell a Christian that they are a soulless bag of complex chemical reactions that will one day simply cease to be, and they will be existentially offended.

The whole threat of punishment for going against god’s will is wrapped up in an afterlife. In this life, we see liars and cheaters and worse rewarded with wealth and luxury. In order for us to feel fair about this, we need to know that we will be the ones watching them suffering in misery and squalor one day, and if not in this life, when?

I will acknowledge that this is likely more of an American POV, with our history and culture being strongly molded by Calvinists and Puritans and other Christian sects that came to the New World in order to engage in religious persecution free from government interference. We are guided more by W. W. Norton’s sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” than J. H. Christ’s “Sermon on the Mount.”

[k9bfriender]

@Voyager

The weasel part comes when people say “I’m not an atheist, I’m an agnostic” when they lack god belief, since theists can accept uncertainty more than lack of belief. Atheism and agnosticism are orthogonal - there can be agnostic theists also, like all deists, as mentioned above.

In this sense, an agnostic will be treated to unwanted sermons and lectures on the beauty of the world and how God made it all for us. An ashiest will be treated to a burning at the stake.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@k9bfriender

An ashiest will be treated to a burning at the stake.

Naturally.

[Jay_Z]

I personally see a contradiction in the “meatsack” argument with the reasons for being an atheist.

If you could convince a coyote to stop howling at the moon, other than your own self interest at not liking the howling, should you? If the coyote’s response is that its ancestor coyotes all howled, peer coyotes howl, it’s part of being a coyote, it seems that part of the argument against howling is that the coyote should detach from being a coyote, because coyotes are just meatsacks. Even though the coyote is only ever going to be a coyote and its existence is completely tied to its coyoteness. So even if the coyote achieves some mental glimpse of the universe and infinity or whatnot, that glimpse is still tied to its coyote brain and will die with its existence as a coyote. So if the coyote enjoys being a coyote and receives benefits from the howling, why should it stop, because it’s only ever going to be a coyote anyway?

I recognize that atheists prefer to be atheists. I just don’t think it matters much beyond that. People that get value out of belief, religion, there’s no particular advantage to them in not doing it and they may in fact be disadvantaged with no upside.

[Polerius]

@Jay_Z

I recognize that atheists prefer to be atheists. I just don’t think it matters much beyond that. People that get value out of belief, religion, there’s no particular advantage to them in not doing it and they may in fact be disadvantaged with no upside.

Actually, I’d love to believe that there is an all-loving entity watching over me and caring for me and my loved ones. I assume that it brings some psychological calmness to be under that belief. But without proof, it’s hard to believe that. It’s not a preference.

In a simplistic example: I’d also like to believe in Santa Claus, in an entity that comes around every year and brings gifts to kids. Living in a world where Santa exists would be preferable to one where he doesn’t. But without proof of his existence, I can’t believe in it just because I’d prefer a world where Santa exists.

OTOH: For people who (a) derive sufficient comfort and benefit from religion and (b) believe in God, I’m happy for them (and a bit envious), and I don’t think they should be persuaded otherwise.

[Polerius]

@k9bfriender

Tell a YEC about evolution, and they will think you are full of crap. Tell a theist that there is no god, and they will happily argue with you for hours. Tell a Christian that they are a soulless bag of complex chemical reactions that will one day simply cease to be, and they will be existentially offended.

Tell a Flat Earther that the Earth is round, and they’ll think you’re crazy. Tell a Covid anti-vaxer that the vaccine doesn’t contain 5G chips, and they’ll argue with you for hours.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove with the above examples.

[kayaker]

@Polerius

But without proof of his existence, I can’t believe in it just because I’d prefer a world where Santa exists.

I have childhood memories of sitting on Santa’s lap. Thus, I have more proof for the existence of Santa than the existence of god.

[Jay_Z]

@Polerius

Actually, I’d love to believe that there is an all-loving entity watching over me and caring for me and my loved ones. I assume that it brings some psychological calmness to be under that belief. But without proof, it’s hard to believe that. It’s not a preference.

I had a dream last night that helped me find closure on a recently concluded relationship, why it had to end. Dreams, subconscious, exist for a reason and can provide insights beyond what is available to the conscious “left-brain in most people.” The dream was more useful than anything else.

I seldom pray, but I did pray this morning for whatever help I can get. I’d still like a more satisfying relationship with a woman in this life. I suppose I don’t expect one to show up on my doorstep, but honestly, given my past history, I might not even recognize her if she did! It’s as much a plea to myself to reach out, try different things and attitudes, pay attention to my dreams, work on wisdom. If I get help from someone else, good luck, whatever, I want to be able to be thankful for it and see it! Physical proof is sort of irrelevant to all that. Believing I’m just a meatsack, what’s the point?

[jjakucyk]

@Polerius

OTOH: For people who (a) derive sufficient comfort and benefit from religion and (b) believe in God, I’m happy for them (and a bit envious), and I don’t think they should be persuaded otherwise

But if they hold these beliefs without good evidence, they are more likely to believe other claims without good evidence, which can be bad for them as well as their friends, family, and society as a whole, especially when they vote based on those beliefs.

[Voyager]

@k9bfriender

An ashiest will be treated to a burning at the stake.

And a carnivorous one will be burned at the steak.

[Jay_Z]

@jjakucyk

But if they hold these beliefs without good evidence, they are more likely to believe other claims without good evidence, which can be bad for them as well as their friends, family, and society as a whole, especially when they vote based on those beliefs.

Not the OP, but this is more of a philosophical discussion, and I strongly prefer that politics be left out of it.

[Voyager]

@Jay_Z

I recognize that atheists prefer to be atheists. I just don’t think it matters much beyond that. People that get value out of belief, religion, there’s no particular advantage to them in not doing it and they may in fact be disadvantaged with no upside.

If people stopped at getting value out of religion, the world would be a better place. It is when they decide that they have the right answer and those of us who disagree with them had better follow what Jesus tells them that we should do is where I have a problem. Some churches never do this, but way too many do.

@k9bfriender

What happens to our “souls” when we die is something that likely will never be answered by science, or at least not to the satisfaction of someone who wants a particular answer, anyway.

That’s a Christian thing, mostly. All the temple services I went to, all the years I spent in Hebrew school no one ever talked about where my soul went. Now lots of people talked about heaven, but I think they got that from the Christian environment we all live in. Just dying and my consciousness vanishing has never bothered me, possibly because I never got going to heaven (and never hell) pounded into me as a kid.

[Jay_Z]

@Voyager

If people stopped at getting value out of religion, the world would be a better place.

Disagree completely. But you’re free to do you and pursue the limits of your understanding.

[AHunter3]

@Polerius

Actually, I’d love to believe that there is an all-loving entity watching over me and caring for me and my loved ones. I assume that it brings some psychological calmness to be under that belief.

I’m not sure I ever needed that. Or not beyond flesh-and-blood parents. What I needed was similar but more abstract:

• I needed it to be ultimately true, somehow, that caring and being compassionate to other people was genuinely good. That it had real purpose. That meant it had to NOT be true that life is nothing but competition and domination and winner-take-all. Didn’t have to mean that the good people end up with all the pineapples and get to run things and the bullies and predators all lose, but had to at least mean that the people being kind and compassionate have happier lives and that being that way towards others really does bring happiness to them. And that in turn had to mean that no, it wasn’t true that if all the illusions were pulled away, the way to be self-fulfilled was to grab it and snarl and defeat your enemies and stand astride their corpses etc.; it had to be true that these things matter

• I needed it to be possible that we could live in peace and in a state of voluntary cooperation as free and equal people, at least loosely speaking, and that meant it had to not be inevitable that all social / political organization would always be about power over other people and coercion. These ideals didn’t have to necessarily show up as a perfected society I could join in my lifetime, but those aspirations and beliefs in these things had to not be pie in the sky impossible dream stuff, like wishing we could fly like Superman or something.

• I needed it to be possible that sex and romantic relationships could be warm and mutual and loving and tender and not inevitably possessive and adversarial and exploitative and competitive and stuff. I needed it to not be true that it’s all about fuckers and those who get fucked, and in particular that it wasn’t true that males are only sexually viable to the extent that they are aggressive and pushy and selfish misogynist creeps.

Getting a sense of God as not merely a set of principles, like laws of physics but applicable to human behaviors and social patterns, but actually a Presence that I could experience a type of communion with, was a bonus.

As my Jewish friends so recently sang at the seder, just to have the right universal laws in effect, “that would have been enough”. Dayenu indeed.

[DocCathode]

@AHunter3

Dayenu indeed.

When We rise and take over the world with our Space Lasers, your house will be marked and no harm will come to you.

On A More Serious Note

As Voyager said, the Torah speaks obliquely at best about an afterlife. There are promises of something that will happen for sure sometime after death. But, most concepts of heaven and hell are Christian. I forget who originally said this “We know that there is something after we die. Because G-d promises us that there is always justice. We know that G-d keeps His promises. We also know, there is no justice in this world.”

[Thing.Fish]

I agree that fear of death is a major motivation for a lot of religious belief, and I think it is a bad one. Religious doctrines might provide someone with solace during hard times, or with ethical guidance, but they can’t really resolve our lack of certain knowledge about what happens after death, and acting as though they did is likely to lead to psychological damage.

It is my observation that the extent to which a religion is likely to have net positive effects on its believers and society at large is inversely proportional to the extent to which it uses the promise of an afterlife to motivate belief. Once you get people sincerely believing that spending eternity in bliss or torment depends on following the leader’s instructions…I forget who said this, but “if you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities”.

[Thing.Fish]

@Voyager

If people stopped at getting value out of religion, the world would be a better place. It is when they decide that they have the right answer and those of us who disagree with them had better follow what Jesus tells them that we should do is where I have a problem. Some churches never do this, but way too many do.

“It is not the seeking after God that divides but the claim to have found God and to have discovered the only proper way of obeying God” – R. Mordechai Kaplan

[k9bfriender]

@Jay_Z

I personally see a contradiction in the “meatsack” argument with the reasons for being an atheist.

Maybe because it wasn’t an argument, and nothing that you put in your post addresses anything that was said?

@Jay_Z

So if the coyote enjoys being a coyote and receives benefits from the howling, why should it stop, because it’s only ever going to be a coyote anyway?

Because that coyote also enjoys telling you what you can and cannot do, who you can love, and how to live your life.

@Jay_Z

I recognize that atheists prefer to be atheists.

You are wrong on that.

@Jay_Z

People that get value out of belief, religion, there’s no particular advantage to them in not doing it and they may in fact be disadvantaged with no upside.

That’s great, when they keep it to themselves. When they start telling me how to live my life because of their beliefs, that’s when we start to have problems.

[k9bfriender]

@Polerius

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove with the above examples.

Not prove anything, just point out that a Christian will take it far more personally that you don’t agree with their beliefs than most of the other followers of unprovable or even disproven beliefs do.

[k9bfriender]

@Jay_Z

Disagree completely. But you’re free to do you and pursue the limits of your understanding.

So, you do feel that the world is a better place for people imposing their religion on others?

Would you feel the same if a religion that you didn’t believe in was imposed on you, or would you rather that those who are imposing it on you stopped at getting value themselves?