Why do so many people still believe in God?

If you don’t mind me repurposing a post I made to the FaceBook “MENSA” group… the question that had been posed was “how can I view people as intelligent if they’re referring to ‘God’ every five minutes?” and following a slew of mostly atheist replies I entered the following:


Not all theistic people find it necessary to refer to god every 5 minutes. If we focus on those that do, I suspect the population we’ve thus isolated consists primarily of those who find illusory comfort in the promise of absolute certainty, which absolves them of having to think on certain matters or in certain problematic topic areas (mostly pertaining to human interaction, although issues such as one’s own mortality or summing up the overall experience of life may also fall into this zone). Conversing with anyone in a topic area where they’ve opted to not think is going to convey the impression of scant intelligence.

But most people turn to prepackaged theistic solutions and promises not because they’re fundamentally stupid, but because modern life is complex and for most people difficult to sort out. I had the distinct impression between the ages of 15 and 20 that most folks of my cohort stopped assuming that they’d figure out the adult stuff by the time they were adults, got nervous about how little made sense, and stopped trying and instead looked around and began to copycat anyone who seemed to be doing relatively well… and hoped nobody noticed that they were an imposter, a fake grownup who had no clue what they were doing.

When you’re in that state of mind, it’s pretty easy to sell you on a bag of plastic answers.

Keep in mind that less than 500 years ago you could mostly look around and understand human endeavors and motivations, tools and processes, mores and morals, even if a lot of it wasn’t healthy and a lot of the big-scale stuff remained mysterious. Back off to 10,000 years and life mostly consisted of picking or digging up what was growing, chasing down a tasty critter now and then, and dealing with the aggressive animals that viewed you as a tasty critter. But fast forward again to the present and vast swaths of how human experience is set up are “black boxes”, processes that are far from self-explanatory and where most of us shrug and participate with only superficial understanding; and where options and alternatives are myriad but clarity about how to choose or how to proceed is considerably less available.

When you grow up in a world dominated by the prepackaged McReligion institutions, it’s easy to conclude that the entire body of theistic thought exists only as “opiate of the masses” or “pablum for stupid people” or “get rick quick schemes for jim bakker types”.

But let’s look at it from the other vantage point. In a world where there were some topic areas that didn’t easily yield themselves to understanding — and, I might add, a world without a formalized scientific method as of yet — there would be a few people who for whatever reason were inclined to ponder these things. For most of human history they didn’t come back with an array of experiments and resultant data but now and then they had insights about human behavior or life choices or how a government and its officials ought to behave. Some of which was empty of useful content but some of which people found helpful, and hence a social role and social notion arose for these odd people and their odd social contributions.

Note the presence in that list of potential criticism of the government. It should not be difficult to connect the dots and see that it might be useful to the governor to have an Official State Religion to point to and tell the people “don’t go listening to these charlatans with their ideas, we already have a holy man and a temple and they have Right Answers”. But that is a response to the original not-so-prepackaged version, yes?

Dub in the renaissance and modern scientific method and we’ve got positivist science and highly compelling results, but scientific method doesn’t answer the human interaction stuff, the choices stuff, the meaning of life stuff. Not every human concern yielded itself to the methodology that put human footprints on the moon. Doesn’t mean any blithering idiot who claims to be bearing the word of god should be embraced as a visionary, but it sheds some light on why a thinking person might be theistic, or at least to be a ponderer of these questions that don’t have easy answers.

ETA: I have no idea why that first ¶ is all boldface, I didn’t format it that way

Divine Intervention, clearly.

I still think the 2000 election was “stolen”. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Why the scare quotes? It was. /hijack

My point is that some people do, as far as I can tell, treat having met an angel in a dream pretty much the same way they’d treat having met an angel in real life while wide awake: by believing that a supernatural entity not only exists, but met them and delivered a divine message to them — if, y’know, that’s what happened in the dream.

If I’m right about that, then I figure it’d help explain why some people believe that supernatural entities exist — as in the case of the guy who (a) dreamed about having met an angel who delivered a divine message, and then (b) believed that said angel exists and met him and delivered a divine message to him.

I’m not sure where the miscommunication is coming in; I’m saying that some people dream about stuff —for example, the existence of supernatural entities — and then make absolutely no secret of figuring that what they dreamed reflects reality. That’s not a metaphor for something else; I’m not saying it to hint at some other conclusion; that’s the whole thing, start to finish, right there.

But it sounds to me like you’re speculating this, based on your observation that many people don’t seem to know or care about a distinction between an angel appearing to a biblical character in a dream vs. in their waking life. But it doesn’t necessarily follow that they wouldn’t care about such a distinction if it happened to them. Or that it actually happens often enough to matter. Hence my question to you earlier in the thread:

A couple of observations:

I don’t know anyone, in person or by reputation, who claims to believe in God and/or the supernatural because of a dream they had.

And, hypothetically, if someone did claim that, it wouldn’t necessarily be a bad reason for believing, if that dream were way more vivid and impressive than any other dream they’d ever had, and/or their dream revealed or predicted something they couldn’t otherwise have known.

As far as I can tell, Joseph didn’t seem to know or care about the distinction; that’s not speculation, that’s just how he’s said to have reacted.

And when I’ve asked Christians about that, they’ve responded as if his dream-vs-waking-life reaction seems like an eminently reasonable thing to have done. And I don’t think that’s speculation on my part, either; they respond not only as if they believe he reacted accordingly to a dream where an angel appeared to him, but as if they believe that an angel did appear to him.

But that last part I mentioned there is also my point: that people hear about Joseph meeting an angel in a dream, and then — without meeting an angel themselves, either in real life or in a dream — nod in agreement that Joseph’s no-distinction reaction was reasonable; and believe, as he did, that the guy met an angel and reacted accordingly.

I’ve heard that Joseph believed an angel visited him because he dreamed that an angel visited him — and, whenever I’ve asked a Christian about it, I’ve been assured that it made perfect sense for Joseph to have believed that an angel visited him, and that they likewise believe an angel visited him.

I don’t know how many other times that sort of thing is the case — but that one example, all by itself, already leaves me utterly gobsmacked about what people think is a reasonable response to a dream about an angel. If I were to learn that four other people had dreams like that, and reacted like that, and sparked yeah-that’s-reasonable comments from yet other people, my response would be the same as if I were to learn that it happened four thousand times or four million times: I’m already utterly gobsmacked by people reacting that way even once, I can’t ratchet it up any further.

I don’t see that I’m speculating as to whether people would so react to a dream about an angel; plenty of people obligingly spell out, upon request, not that they would, but that they — do.

I think it’s important to note, in St. Joseph’s case, that the angel came to him to directly answer a decision Joseph had made, to politely and delicately divorce Mary, so as not to expose her to public disgrace.

It’s said that he “had it in mind to divorce her quietly” (emphasis mine). He hadn’t told anybody about that decision. The angel appeared to him and said to him that it was all right, that the child within her was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and he should not be afraid to take Mary as his wife.

The angel appeared to him based on a decision that he had made privately and told no one about.

I don’t get how that’s important; why would it make any difference whether anyone else knows about his decision, so long as the guy who does know about it is the one guy who’s having the dream?

If, one night, he dreamed about something he’d mentioned to other people — and, another night, he dreamed about something he hadn’t mentioned to anyone else — so what? What’s the relevance?

Fair point. March was originally the first month of the year. September (7), October (8), November (9) and December (10) with February, the 12th month, the one with the leftover number of days. But a one month variance for the date of Easter? Definitely not historical.

I’m sorry but this is a non sequitur. This conclusion is not supported by the preceding material. There’s mo natural law that requires that a commemoration must be linked to a solar year in order to be … historical? You understand that all commemorations are held on days that are by definition not the day the historical event happened, right?

I personally believe that very few people actually believe in God, regardless of what they profess or how frequently they go to church. If people actually truly believe that God watches everything they do or say or think and judges them accordingly, they would be terrified all day long.

In many ways, I think religion is similar to how nerds obsess over Star Wars or Lord of the Rings or whatever. They know it’s not real, but the stories provide a useful shared moral and ethical framework for discussions.

Plus, for all we know, there could be a God. I don’t mean in the biblical sense of an old man and stone tablets and whatnot. But I think it’s the same principle as when people talk about “living in a simulation”. Like there is some higher level of reality that sits on top of how we understand the universe. Whether there is any sentience or other purpose to it, I could not say.

Basically what I’m saying is that even with all our science, I think it’s arrogant to assume that we little carbon blobs of mostly water sitting on an inconsequential spec in the vast infinite universe have a true sense of their place in how everything works any more than a fish or amoeba does.

Very few people are actually atheists, regardless of what they say. If people actually truly believed there was no God, they’d run wild, cheating and stealing and raping and murdering whenever they thought they could get away with it.

The above is, of course, ridiculous. But I’ve seen/heard people sincerely express similar sentiments, along with more benign versions like “How can people look around at this world and not see the hand of God?”

But yes, people genuinely do think and see and experience the world differently from you.

Well, yes, but that’s becuase the situation you have made is not relevant, and is simply ridiculous.

If you knew you were being watched all the time at work, you are not going to steal the office supplies. However, if you know that you are not watched, that doesn’t mean that you will steal the office supplies.

The argument that I have heard from pro-religious folk is that they would have no morals if they were not in fear of retribution from an all knowing god, and since they only have morals out of fear of punishment, they believe that everyone else is that way as well. They do genuinely believe that everyone thinks and sees and experiences the world the same as they do.

But that’s not how it works. I don’t have to believe that my performance is being monitored and that my actions will have consequences in the afterlife in order to not be a psychopath.

Anyway, the point made by @msmith537 is that people who claim to believe that they are being watched by their bosses are stealing the office supplies, which belies their claim.

The problem with Pascal’s wager is that it presumes a choice between no belief, or a belief in the One True God™. That makes it look like a 50/50 choice, but what if you believe in the wrong god, or the wrong religion/sect/denomination based on that god? So there’s thousands of potential “wrong answers” and no way to figure out which (if any) are actually correct.

Which is why I have called it Pascal’s Roulette wheel. (Which he invented, trying to make a perpetual motion machine.)

Penn Jillette:

The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don’t want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don’t want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you. You know what I mean?

And the reason most people don’t want to do that is empathy. I don’t want to murder someone else because I don’t want to be murdered. I don’t steal because I don’t want to be stolen from. While I may derive some small benefit from murdering/stealing/raping/whatever, a society where all those things are OK is a shitty place to live, because you end up spending your life defending yourself from the other murderers, thieves, and rapists. That’s where secular laws come from. No gods or religions are necessary.

The point has been made more than a few times that certain faiths have the deity’s forgiveness of sin as a primary tenant. So some folks, naturally, will try to push that as far as they can. That does not evidence their lack of faith in a God.

Personally, I would say that yes, belief in God or Karma or some higher force can be a leavening agent against certain circumstances.

Suppose one of my children is murdered. If I posit that I know with dead certainty that there is NOTHING else, this is all, no God, karma, harmony in the universe exists… honestly, yes, then direct retribution becomes more compelling to me. At that point I’d seek out direct vengeance if possible. (I will allow that people sometimes do this anyway even with a belief in God/karma. Or the extreme negative event shakes that belief and they temporarily or permanently abandon it.)

I think people that claim that this would not become more compelling are either in denial, or simply don’t want to deal with it because it’s not THEIR child that this happened to, and they really don’t care about the people going through it and would rather just sweep it under the rug. It’s not authentic empathy for such a situation.