The title sort of says it all.
Not sure how prevalent this is now (though I do see it), but certainly in the old WWII portraits/photos the guys often have the tie tucked into their shirt between, e.g., the second and third button down from the collar.
I’ve seen men do this in civilian life but almost always to avoid stains while eating, etc.
What’s the story with the military practice, and is it considered orthodox/acceptable dress uniform style?
Not sure about the exact reasons for the practice in the military, but almost any tech support guy will do the same when working over electronic equipment…for obvious reasons. I’d assume most people who work with equipment but wear ties follow this practice as well.
Of course, you might wonder why someone who works with machinery would wear a tie, but that is just one of those imponderables…
Well naturally we solve this problem by wearing a bow tie.
When I was in the Army a few years ago I wore the dress uniform (Class A) quite a bit, I was in a band. There was no guidance on ties, except the generally held notion that it had to be straight. Senior NCO’s would routinely voiciferate, “Fix that gigline soldier!” Normally, the tie today is only worn where getting it caught in machinery is not a problem, of course there will always be a situation when exceptions will be found.
One other soldier in my unit would always tuck the skinny end of his tie into his shirt, I don’t recall anyone giving him a hard time about it.
i was amazed by the number of people that were unable to tie a tie. You would think it involved nuclear codes or something the amount of time that would go into avoiding wearing the Class A uniform or getting out of the duty that required it. Or just tieing it once in basic training and leaving it tied for the rest of your service.
As to the question about the WWII pictures with the tie tucked in, I have always wondered that also
well,the truthful answer although many military men are not actually told,out of embarrassment of their branch of service,and this is why many C/O’S and N/CO’S will jump on a soldier to tuck that tie,the ONLY BRANCH of the military that DOES NOT TUCK THEIR TIES IS THE MARINE CORP,the tucked tie is a symbol of surrender to the enemy.we are told in MARINE CORP BOOT CAMP,that you better NEVER be seen with a tucked tie,or you better get ready for some strict discipline! the USMC is the only branch of the military that has never surrender to the enemy.like it or not people,this is a stone,COLD fact!
Have you got a requisition slip for all those commas?
(or a citation for your assertions?)
And do you have any caps to spare for the beginning words of your sentences?
Saw one sgt. wearing his khaki tie that way post-vietnam. Question: just how many soldiers (marine or otherwise) wear tie pins? Regardless, neckties really have to lie flat along the button line (that’s what they’re for, to hide buttons.)
The United States Marine Corps surrendered to the Japanese on December 8, 1941 in the First Battle of Guam! That is a “stone, COLD fact!”
Not the first, nor the last Marine Corps surrender, either. Just the first that comes to mind.
Would you like to talk about Operation Vigilant Resolve next? The Marine Corps is not what you think it is…
Hey bone, where and when did you go to boot camp? I never heard this at MCRD, about the tucked tie signalling surrender. I’m guessing I am “Old Corps” compared to you. And, listen to what Bear_Nenno says. We have a proud tradition and history, but it ain’t perfect.
Semper Fi,
Gunny T
I never saw it in my time in the Army, and I’ve only seen it in old pictures from the same eras that civilians would do the same thing. Like someone upthread said, if you work around machinery with a tie, you need to tuck it in. It’s just that we don’t do that anymore, we just don’t wear ties in that situation. I don’t think this is/was particular to the military.
I think we’re all in debt to marinetothebone for stating what needed to be said. I am particulary glad that these lovely children are here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic USMC gibberish, it expressed the courage little seen in this day and age.
But actually, neckties orignated as military attire: worn by Croat mercenaries in the the 16th centruy, it’s where the workd “cravat” comes from.
Marine vs Army rivalry is apparent in the tuck vs untucked versions. The army prides itself on getting the job done, so they tucked their ties in to keep it out of their work. Marines, an organization that focuses on indoctrination beyond mere training, requires its membes to tie thier ties so the exposed ends meet up exactly right.
It goes back to the early days of both services: the old English, French & Dutch marines were paid (even) less than soldiers (soldiers got steady pay; Marines, as part of ship’s crews, had to wait for prize money from captured vessels). The US never awarded prize percentages, but still paid it Marines less than soldiers. Due to that, the Marines attracted a scruffier lot than the army, and they were managed with a heavier hand.
But that only meant they had stricter discipline and tighter bayonet drill. Their spit & polish wasn’t any greater than the army’s until the Boxer Rebellion. Then the Americans were in garrison next to a half-dozen European armies, and didn’t want to look sloppy in comparison. Also, looking sharp was seen as the best intimidation method when a few hundred palefaces were facing down millions of Chinese.
Ironically, the first Americans to adopt this hyper-style were the army’s 15th Infantry regiment. Every soldier had his own coolie to keep his shoes shined and creases pressed. When the army turned over its mission to the Marined (under Smedley Butler) in the 1920’s, the Marines inherited the mantle of the snazziest bastards in uniform they enjoy today.
If, as you propose, the tucking of a tie is the universal sign of surrender, then:
Why is it done so often among so many branches over so long a history? Has the army been signaling surrender for generations?
Do marines fight in their dress uniforms? Or do their battle uniforms have ties? I ask because if you’re on the battlefield, how can you tuck in your tie to indicate surrender if you’re not wearing one?
IOW, your claim that tucked-in ties are an indication of surrender is astoundingly hard to believe. So… got a cite?
I joined the Army in 1989. Tucked ties were long in the past. Brown shoe army stuff.
This cite says tucked ties ended in 1966.
Ties exist to hide buttons? At last a rationale for those stupid things!
marinetothebone, like E7T I don’t recall hearing that particular piece of propaganda in boot camp. Is there any explanation as to WHY a tucked tie is a sign of surrender??
Slithy Tove, that is some awesome REAL military history/trivia there!
Thank you, and it shows that the pull over shirt is real progress and ties are functionally obsolete.
Thank you for bringing in actual sources, Loach. At age 51 I do not recall ever seeing the US forces in the flesh using the tucked tie, only in movies/TV shows made or set in a pre-Vietnam Era period. As the source says, it was a carryover from when the standard everyday uniform DID include a tie, so you had to get it out of the way when doing any real work. Since the 60s every service has had an assortment of weather- and task-appropriate working/service uniforms that do not include neckties, and the ties have been reserved mostly for dress ocassions and for indoor office work in “winter” style (until they started wearing combat camo to the office, too).
Other militaries who retained older-style uniforms may have also retained the tucked-tie look but by now it’s more a matter of traditional style for them.
There’s a reason they call it the mess hall.
It’s not that heavy to pit but I really think the human male population should be educated about tie pins. Don’t you feel stupid eating at some restaurant with your nice silk tie slung over your shoulder to keep it from touching your soup? Or walking along the sidewalk on a windy day and your loose tie is waving around like a pennant?
If no one makes tie pins anymore, then use a safety pin. Me, I even make do with fancy paper clips (the ones with small round medallions on one end.)
