It is, however, exactly reflective of the rationalizations you have used to attempt to justify your statements, regardless how you might have originally reached your conclusions.
Note, you have not been told that you cannot make your arguments; you have only been told that you cannot rationalize death threats based on your personal beliefs.
Now drop it or take it to ATMB.
[ /Moderating ]
Sorry for not answering sooner. You can object to his characterization, but “climb down off your cross” is more confrontational than I want things to get in GD. It’s a personal comment and not an argument.
Fair enough.
The rocket firing started several decades after the occupation did.
Here are a selection of news items from just one day. A day getting on for half a century after the occupation started.
Peace group: Settlers attack international observers
BETHLEHEM (Ma‘an) 29 July – Israeli settlers from the illegal outpost of Havat Maon, south of Hebron, attacked two international observers on Wednesday, hitting one on the head with an iron bar, the Christian Peacemaker Teams said. “At approximately 9:15 AM on July 27, 2011, masked settlers from the Havat Maon outpost armed with stones and an iron bar harassed three Palestinian shepherds and attacked two international observers. The settlers threw stones at the internationals, and hit one of them in the head with an iron bar,” a CPT statement said. "The Palestinian shepherds were out with their flocks on Palestinian land near Mesheha hill when the four masked settlers attacked them. The shepherds were able to leave the area, but the settlers attacked the internationals.
"One of the internationals was a member of Christian Peacemaker Teams, the other was visiting the area. The settlers destroyed the CPTer’s camera and chased them both back to At-Tuwani. Christian Peacemaker Teams and Operation Dove have documented 6 occasions since June 22, 2011 in which settlers from Havat Maon have attacked Palestinians or internationals near Mesheha Hill.
link to www.maannews.net
Settlers invade Beit Ommar and Surif on Friday morning
[photos] PSP 29 July – On the 29th of July, 2011 a large group of settlers was observed passing through the land of Beit Ommar and Surif. The group, which consisted of 40 settlers, 2 of whom were armed, and 4 soldiers, walked through farmland in Beit Ommar and crossed through the town of Surif. They were observed by a group of residents from the towns as well as two internationals. Members of the group harassed residents as they passed through Surif, and briefly sat down near the entrance of a Palestinian house. They were seen carrying maps and taking pictures of the land and Palestinian homes. Residents responded to the presence of settlers on the land by throwing stones. The military accompanying the settlers then shot live ammunition in their direction. Surif has a history of violence by settlers in the area. In January, settlers from Bat Ayn shot two youths from the town, killing 17 year old Yousef Ikhlayl.link to palestinesolidarityproject.org
Witnesses: Settlers set fire to olive trees in Burin
NABLUS (Ma‘an) 29 July – Israeli settlers on Friday torched olive trees in Burin village, south of Nablus, and fired live ammunition at firefighters’ trucks trying to reach the blaze, Palestinian Authority officials said. PA settlement affairs official Ghassan Doughlas said the fire continued to rage as firefighters were unable to reach the area. Witnesses said clashes erupted between the settlers and villagers, and that Israeli soldiers fired live ammunition, rubber-coated steel bullets and tear gas at the Palestinians. Resident Khaled Omran said Israeli forces prevented Palestinian firefighters from putting out the fire.
link to www.maannews.net
Settlers set fire to olive groves in Nablus
NABLUS (PIC) 29 July – A group of Jewish settlers from the Itamar settlement, which is built on confiscated Palestinian land to near Nablus in the northern West Bank, on Thursday set fire to Palestinian crops and olive groves in lands belonging to the residents of the village of Awarta to the east of Nablus. The Awarta village council said in a statement that settlers set fire to fields in the north east of the village resulting in the burning of seven dunums (1 dunum= 1000 square meters) of producing olive trees. The council added that civil defence teams from nearby Bourin village helped tackle the fire which resulted in great loss to Palestinian farmers.
link to www.palestine-info.co.uk
PCHR Weekly report on Israeli human rights violations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (21-27 July)
28 July – …During the reporting period, IOF conducted at least 24 military incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank, during which they arrested 9 Palestinian civilians, including two children. In the Gaza Strip, IOF conducted one limited incursion into the southern Gaza Strip, during which they leveled areas of Palestinian land. [details] … During the reporting period, IOF used force against peaceful demonstrations organized by Palestinian civilians and international and Israeli human rights defenders in protest to the construction of the Wall and settlement activities in the West Bank. As a result, a Palestinian civilian was wounded, dozens of Palestinian civilians and human rights defenders suffered from tear gas inhalation and others sustained bruises. IOF also arrested 8 Palestinian civilians. [details]
link to www.pchrgaza.org
IOF intensify presence in and around Jerusalem on the eve of Ramadan
OCCUPIED JERUSALEM (PIC) 29 July – IOF troops have increased their presence in and around the occupied city of Jerusalem and tightened measures on all roads leading from the West Bank to Jerusalem on the eve of Ramadan to prevent Palestinian worshipers from reaching the Aqsa Mosque. Local sources said that the IOF have deployed thousands of policemen and soldiers in the streets of city and alleyways leading to the Aqsa Mosque in the old city as well as the gates of the Mosque starting on the morning of the last Friday before the start of Ramadan. The sources added that military roadblocks were set up inside the city, while worshipers from the West Bank were denied entry into the city at the major roadblocks: Kalandia roadblock to the north, Hizma roadblock to the east and Bethlehem roadblock to the south, as well as at other minor roadblocks. [Ramadan starts Aug 1 this year for most Muslims anyway]
link to www.palestine-info.co.uk
Israeli army shuts down West Bank protests
[photos] RAMALLAH (Ma‘an) – Israeli forces on Friday fired tear gas and sound grenades to shut down weekly anti-wall protests in villages across the West Bank. Activists said three women were injured and three foreign nationals were detained in Nabi Saleh. A journalist for Al-Hayat Al-Jadida was attacked and briefly detained at the protest. Meanwhile hundreds of Palestinians, Israelis and international activists played a football match during an anti-wall demonstration in Al-Ma‘sara near Bethlehem. Activists said soldiers attacked popular committee spokesman Muhammad Ahmad Burjieh, 33. He was taken to hospital in Beit Jala with fractured ribs.
link to www.maannews.net
Israeli soldiers attack West Bank anti-wall protesters; four injured, four arrested
Ramallah (PNN) 29 July – On Friday, four injured and four arrested as Israeli troops attacked anti-wall protests organized in a number of West Bank communities. Protests took place in the central West Bank villages of al-Nabi Salleh, Bil‘in, and Ni‘lin in addition to al-Ma‘ssara in the southern West Bank. Three women, two local and one international were injured and a journalist and three activists were arrested as Israeli troops attacked the anti-wall and settlements protests in the village of al-Nabi Salleh. Villagers and their Israeli and international supporters marched to local farm lands Israel had taken to build a new settlement. Troops attacked protesters with tear gas and rubber-coated steel bullets. Then soldiers forced people back into the village and fired rubber-coated steel bullets and tear gas at journalists and medics. The three injured women sustained moderate wounds as soldiers beat them up.
link to english.pnn.ps
Israeli army attacks Dutch music orchestra with tear gas
Nablus (PNN) 29 July – The Dutch street orchestra ‘Fanfare van de Eerste Liefdesnacht’ (the First Night of Love Brass Band) from Amsterdam was attacked with tear gas today by the Israeli army during their performance in the Palestinian village Kufr Qadum near Nablus, northern West Bank. The band’s tour of Palestine is designed to be interactive, working with children from a refugee camp in the east of Bethlehem and having them play along with the band and dancing in the streets together. The musicians were confronted with tens of soldiers who shot tear gas canisters from behind their military jeeps during the musical performance. They then found themselves surrounded with snipers. Several members of the band were injured and suffered from tear gas inhalation.
link to english.pnn.ps
Report: Israeli soldier tweets from detained protester’s phone
+972mag 29 July – In what appears to be an escalation in the Israeli army’s attempts to intimidate unarmed protesters from joining protests in Nabi Saleh, soldiers apprehended a Palestinian-American college student this morning at the entrance to Nabi Saleh as the weekly demonstration against the occupation was starting. The demonstrator, who wishes to remain anonymous, told +972 that he was on his way into the village in a private taxi from Ramallah. At the entrance to the village, Israeli soldiers prevented him from entering and searched him and his driver multiple times. After the searches were complete, soldiers took his phone, passport and wallet while leaving him and his driver to sit in the sun. After one hour, soldiers informed him that he must return to Ramallah and demanded that he “tell people not to come to Nabi Saleh because it is closed.” One military jeep then followed his taxi as it drove back to Ramallah. Using the Twitter handle @Abou_Charlie, he reported his experience with the soldiers only to realize that soldiers had used his phone to tweet while he was detained.
link to 972mag.com
IOF arrest lawmaker Khaled Abu Tous, Hamas leader Mustafa Abu Arra
JENIN (PIC) 29 July – IOF troops on Friday morning arrested two Hamas prominent leaders in the districts of Jenin and Toubas; Sheikh Khalid Abu Tous, lawmaker representing Toubas [in the PLC] and prominent Hamas leader in Jenin Sheikh Mustafa Abu Arra. Hamas sources said that IOF troops raided this morning the home of Sheikh Khaled Abu Tous (50 years) in the village of Tamoun to the east of Toubas, they questioned the lawmaker and then took him away. As well as being an elected lawmaker, Abou Tous is a well-known and respected figure in the Toubas district. He is married and has 4 children. He was detained on several occasions by the occupation authorities.
Meanwhile, IOF troops raided the village of Aqqaba, south of Jenin, and arrested former mayor and prominent Hamas leader in the village, Sheikh Mustafa Abu Arra (55 years), after searching his home. Abu Arra was released about a year ago after spending two years in administrative detention in occupation jails.
link to www.palestine-info.co.uk
Palestinian Christians protest Anglican chief’s occupation blind spot / Sarah Irving
EI 29 July – Stephen Sizer, a Palestine solidarity campaigner and Church of England vicar, wrote on his blog about visiting Aboud in March this year, “I was going to entitle this [post] ‘the Ethnic Cleansing of Aboud,’ but that is not strong enough language to describe what I witnessed in this village. … Since 1967 the Israeli government has stolen the best land, depriving villagers access to most of their olive groves and income. They have built three large colonies exclusively for American and European Jews on the confiscated hills around Aboud. They have even stolen the village water pump, diverting the bulk of the water to the settlements” (“The Rape of Aboud”). Despite the progressive approach of churchmen like Sizer, comments by Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury and leader of the Anglican and Episcopalian churches worldwide, have aroused anger among Palestinian Christians.link to electronicintifada.net
Can water end the Arab-Israeli conflict? / Arwa Arburawa
AJ 29 July – Could solving the water crisis in Israel and Palestine also help resolve the entrenched occupation and conflict? – Around three weeks ago on a late Tuesday morning, Israeli soldiers armed with a truck and a digger entered the Palestinian village of Amniyr anddestroyed nine water tanks. One week later, Israeli forces demolished water wells and water pumps in the villages of Al-Nasaryah, Al-Akrabanyah and Beit Hassan in the Jordan Valley. In Bethlehem, a severe water shortage have led to riots in refugee camps and forced hoteliers to pay over the odds for water just to stop tourists from leaving. Palestinians insist that the Israeli occupation means that they are consistently denied their water rights which is why they have to live on 50 litres of water a day while Israeli settlers enjoy the luxury of 280 litres. Clearly, water is at the heart of the Israel-Palestine conflict, but commentators are now insisting that shared water problems could help motivate joint action and better co-operation between both sides, which could in turn help end the conflict. “It’s a shame that water is being used as a form of collective punishment when it could be used to build trust and to help each side recognise that the other is a human being with water rights,” says Nader Al-Khateeb, the Palestinian director of the environmental NGOFriends of the Earth Middle East(FoEME).link to english.aljazeera.net *
And this is just a quiet day, nothing major going on. I think it’s fair to say that over a long period of time, say a decade or two, the occupation is definitely worse for the occupiees than the occupiers and the injustice and the violence inherent in the occupation is obviously going to engender some kind of violent reaction at some point.
Ah, Google Vomit, things are looking up.
Meanwhile, Dick recently claimed that you can’t trust anything the ADL says and you can ignore any poll they conduct because they’re dastardly “Likudniks”, but somehow he’s provided zero cites for that claim. Their bias, though, means he won’t cite them as credible. People tweeting, “Electronic Intifada”, and the Palestine News Network, among others, are okay cites, at least as long as they’re delivered as part of a Gish Gallop of Google Vomit.
Whee.
Maybe Dick’s argument will evolve to include words of his own at some point.
Web sites do seem to be biased either way. Took me a while to Google the legal term, “belligerent occupation.” to find something that seemed neutral.
Add me in with Finn for never thinking of ‘belligerent’ in the term ‘belligerent occupation’ having anything but a neutral connotation.
Yes, nothing but peace, love and moonbeams came out of there before the occupation. Oh wait.
Indeed. One of the key challenges is that a proportionate and correct response to these transgressions would be very difficult to implement, in a practical sense.
Moreover this becomes more difficult as time passes, seeing as the Israelis are diligent in their mission to obstruct justice and are largely unopposed. Observe the extent to which such notorious facts as you present are cordoned off distribution in the US. Instead “Israel” as it is understood in the US signifies something that is completely at odds with the reality-based world.
Start a new thread/discussion for this digression. You might also want to think about two necessary terms:
Of course, you’ve been shown many, many times that “looting” is not a crime punishable by death in any civilized country. Once you posted something from Wikipedia claiming that it was, but you deliberately avoiding quoting the words right after your cherrypicked bit that said “citation needed”.
You’ve also ignored the fact that most land in question was not privately owned by Palestinians, and even the most strident Israeli critics have certified that the majority of land that the settlements are on is, in fact, not Palestinian owned and never was.
But you continue to find ways to call for murdering people you don’t like.
The highlight was still your argument that the point blank murder of a pregnant woman and her young children was a good thing. Much like your argument that it’s perfectly understandable if people want to eliminate Judaism, down to the last torah, by fire.
Truly, a rational and disinterested argument you’ve got there.
Can you please post in support of the wholesale slaughter of any Palestinians living on land that was owned by Jews circa '48 before they were ethnically cleansed from it? Just, ya know, for balanced crazy-talk?
This isn’t appropriate for GD. Dial it back.
So then you did support Baruch Goldstein murdering the Palestinian “looters” in Hebron?
You’re absolutely correct. My apologies on that point.
I would still, however, point out that by Sevastopol’s own rhetoric, the Israelis are justified in wiping out many Palestinians who live in areas that were stolen from Jews, and possibly nuking a few Arab countries who expelled their Jewish populations and appropriated their property. Perhaps ‘just’ firebombing them, I suppose.
Truly, not a particularly comforting philosophy.
One would hope that both those who argue that the US should cut off aid to Israel is they do not immediately stop all settlement expansion and condemn settlement territory build on privately owned Palestinian property (as I do), and those who condemn absolutely anything past the Green Line and claim that the armistice line constitutes an actual border and that any land not Israeli is Palestinian, can both get together and say that rationalizing support for the deliberate murder of thousands of human beings is not a good thing to do.
So the palestinians were using terrorism as a means of trying to force Israelis off land they considered to be theirs and to hopefully eventually set up their own state. Do I take it that you agree that terrorism like this, with these kind of objectives should never be rewarded and that the Israelis were justified in fighting to keep the land and in their subsequent military occupation?
Still no answer. Baruch Goldstein, mass murdering psychopath or glorious anti-looting activist? Israel is justified in bombing any areas in Arab countries where Jews were expelled and their property appropriated and slaughtering any Palestinians, wholesale, who are on areas where Jews were ethnically cleansed circa '48?
Any intellectual consistency here, or just a post hoc rationalization for murdering certain folks?