Tell it to the Israelis:
Why do the Israelis build settlements?
"Undiluted evil: It’s their turn."
Iraq; US revenge for September 11. Same difference.
Shame on you, too.
[QUOTE=Kimstu]
Just 'cuz you successfully occupy a territory in war and continue to exercise de facto control of it after the war does not imply that you officially own it.
[/QUOTE]
No? So, you figure the international police will be by to arrest Israel fairly soon now? taps foot looks around looks at watch looks at calendar with date Um…sometime soon? I have some things to do tonight, so should I wait a bit?
(BTW, I don’t see that Israel has really violated any of those precepts in any case, and I don’t see anything in there that would prevent Israel from exercising control of the OT and pretty much doing what they have done…even if there were international police out there to arrest transgressors. Which, you know, there aren’t)
-XT
Are you saying that you support the killing of Jewish civilians who live within “settlements”?
Goalpost moving, xt old buddy. The question of whether Israel is successfully getting away with something is not the same as the question of whether Israel is officially recognized as legitimately entitled to get away with it.
Multi-decade disputes over the rightful sovereignty of occupied territories are not that uncommon (see also: East Timor), and decades of occupation don’t necessarily give the occupier a recognized claim to the territory.
As I’m sure you know, we don’t actually have any supreme “international police” force entitled to impose the global majority will on participants in territorial disputes. (And if we did, I’m sure you’d be the first to scream bloody murder about violation of sovereignty.) If there were such an international police force so entitled, though, it would take the occupied territories away from Israel.
[QUOTE=Kimstu]
Goalpost moving, xt old buddy. The question of whether Israel is successfully getting away with something is not the same as the question of whether Israel is officially recognized as legitimately entitled to get away with it.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not moving the goal posts Kim…this was always my point. If you had a different point, or if someone else did, then that’s fine by me. I didn’t set their goals however. My point in all of these threads is that ‘international law’ means exactly what the various countries out there THINKS it means. Since there is no enforcement mechanisms it’s all voluntary.
So, we are back to a de facto ‘right of conquest’. It’s even quasi-legal, since Israel didn’t launch a ‘war of aggression’, so territory they captured falls in that whole ‘occupying authority’ gray area that the US and our allies used in Iraq. But, really, it could mean whatever Israel, or the US, or Belgium wants it to mean, in the end, since there aren’t any international police to go forth and arrest transgressors. Unless some country wants to take it upon themselves, in the goodness of their hearts, to Do Something™. Such as when the US invaded Iraq in the furtherance of sacred UN resolutions. Apple Pie™. Little White Houses(aar)…PUPPIES!!
Brings a tear to your eye, no? 
They don’t preclude the occupying authority from claiming the territory either, especially if they use a sort of de facto annexation. Since the sovereign nations who lost territory (with the exception of Syria) have given up their claims in this case, and since I don’t see Syria prepared to press it’s claims to regain it’s lost territory, that gives Israel the best claim. Since it seems unlikely (to understate things) that Palestine will ever get it’s shit together OR be a trusted entity in any sort of serious negotiation, that pretty much leaves us with reality as it is.
-XT
Israelis are building settlements to make the land their own. And they have no business making that land their own. Shame on them, and shame on you.
Ah yes, always with those pesky ‘claims’ backed up by copious ‘cites’.
But again, wonderful factual refutation. Obviously, nothing bad could ever happen to European Jews, you are correct.
In Europe? Not any more. Too much guilt and stuff. Much safer for Jews than anywhere in the MENA.
Now put that irrelevance away. Why do Israelis build settlements?
Mmmm hmmm. Checked any polls recently which show that Europe has a fairly large anti-Semitic contingent who see Jews as alien, clannish and potentially hostile? Perfectly safe. Perfectly.
On the other hand, it would take a nuclear war to end Israel’s existence, something that is somewhat less likely.
However, yes, I can understand how your error is irrelevant to you. Keep on trucking.
Israel’s view of the settlements, according to Danny Ayalon, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. You can view it here.
Why do the Israelis build settlements?
It’s an interesting view, unfortunately basic history is often required on issues like this. The number of folks who hold forth on the issue but have no idea what “transjordan” was, why the term “'67 borders” is jabberwockian nonsense, when Jordan actually ceded its claims of sovereignty over the West Bank, etc… is absurd.
Also unfortunately, any discussion where we have to bring up the facts inevitably gets mired in 200 years of history in the region, minimum.
Yes, Sevvy is on record here advocating that settlers be shot on sight since they are looters.
Why do the Israelis build settlements?
There’s a very important point about the settlements, unlike Israel proper, that people don’t focus on enough, and that’s this: there are no Arabs in the settlements. Not one, as far as I can tell. Israel’s idea in creating settlements was to establish “facts on the ground,” such that when they were finally compelled to talk peace for real, the settlements could be a bargaining chip: the Israelis would propose to keep the (Arab-free) settlements by swapping them for more or less equivalent land from Israel proper. And lo and behold, the lands swapped out of Israel proper would include basically no Jews, but only Arabs.
Settlements were conceived, in other words, as a scheme of de-Arabizing Israel.
Only the other shoe never dropped – to Israel’s surprise, I’m sure. The world, and particularly America, never actually said to Israel, “We insist you stop this minute with the settlements, or you’ll face some consequences.” Given this reality, why on earth should the Israelis stop with the settlements? There’s nothing to lose, and land to gain. And if the day ever comes when Israel is forced to make peace, they’ll just have a bigger pot to play with.
Does he feel the same regarding Americans, Canadians and Australians?
Also isn’t advocating murder a violation of board rules?
[QUOTE=Ibn Warraq]
Also isn’t advocating murder a violation of board rules?
[/QUOTE]
You’d have to ask a Mod, obviously, but I believe the restriction is on advocating death for a specific poster (or some illegal act…Sev doesn’t believe that open season on Israeli settlers would be ‘illegal’. More like getting a hunting license to make sure everyone out there can bag their limit). We actually used to have an Israel settler, but I don’t know if she still posts to the board, so his feelings on killing settlers is a bit theoretical and can probably slip by the rules…on that score at least.
Doubtful.
-XT
That’s really strange. You’re saying that the Israeli government’s goal in establishing settlements would be to eventually annex them in exchange for territory settled by Israeli Arabs? Or in other words, they’d be willing to revoke the citizenship of some of their citizens by transferring them to some Arab country (perhaps an eventual Palestine)? What do Israeli Arabs think of that plan? And what do Israeli Jews think of that plan? I know that if I were an Israeli Arab, I probably wouldn’t want to give up my citizenship without a fight.
And also, would this plan actually have worked? As far as I can tell (and correct me if I’m wrong), the settlements don’t occupy continuous land in the territories. If they’re ever annexed to Israel, they’d take the form of exclaves. And equivalent (Arab-settled) territory now in Israel probably has the same problem. Is there a way to build viable countries in this way?