I worked for a large pizza chain as a cook. One night we figured the cost of food our manager got quite upset when we showed him the numbers. A large specialty pizza of any kind cost no more than 1.25 they charge up to 20.00 or more. Food establishments assume that the customer is going to tip unfortunatley many people don’t tip. I am also aware that many servers do not report their tips accuratley. You can make very good money but if you have a slacker you will make nothing. That being said… most eateries cannot afford to pay hourly wages to servers its just not possible unless you want to pay 40.00 for burgers and fries.
Tipped employees in Washington are paid at least minimum wage:
http://www.lni.wa.gov/workplacerights/wages/minimum/
Can a business count workers’ tips when making sure they get at least minimum wage?
No. Businesses may not use tips as credit toward minimum wages owed to a worker.
Washington also has the highest minimum wage in the country $9.19/hr for 2013).
I got into it over that topic with my servers at a local steakhouse/bar where I was a cook back in 1990-91. Some of these servers had a habit of insisting that I add “extras” to their customers’ plates, solely so that they would get larger tips. I would often refuse, because some of their “requests” were things I had been specifically told not to do by the boss (not to mention making more work for me when I already had my hands full).
So I’d refuse on the basis that I wasn’t going to do extra work and risk getting myself in trouble just so the server could maybe get a bigger tip. Which would get me the livid response, “We have to get tips because we don’t get paid as much as you do!” I don’t know how much these women thought I was getting paid, but I was making $5.00/hr, a whopping 75 cents more than the $4.25/hr then-minimum wage they were getting. And these servers rarely deigned to tip us cooks unless their customer specifically handed them extra money and instructed them to give it to us. The best we cooks could expect was that maybe one of the servers would buy us a drink at the end of the shift. (For the record, I don’t expect my servers to tip me.)
So I’d point out the problem with the idea that I was making so much more money than they were: Every one of them, at the end of the night (this place closed at 11:00PM) had enough money to go have mixed drinks at a nice bar after work until 2:00AM, while we cooks generally had to settle for maybe picking up a 6-pack and taking it home. And every single one of these servers drove a much newer, much nicer car than any of the cooks had. Yes, clearly I was getting paid way more than them :rolleyes:
I don’t understand the percentage portion of the tip. If I buy a $200 bottle of wine instead of a $20 bottle of wine, why should the server get 30 bucks instead of 3 for the same amount of work?
Here we go again. It isn’t based on actual labor expended but few things are if you really think about it. They don’t sell $200 bottles of wine at Denny’s. You are paying for the overall experience of being in nicer place and the tip is a socially expected part of that.
If you that concerned about money in the first place, you need to go to the store to buy that bottle of wine. A $200 bottle of restaurant wine is $50 tops if you drink it at home. There is no need to single out the server tip as a money drain to you. It is all set up that way and yet most restaurants and servers still don’t make that much money. They only exist at that level because people have special occasions sometimes and are willing to pay inflated prices to celebrate. The alternative is to buy the wine and food and cook it all yourself at home.
I stand corrected. Feel free to substitute a different state in the hypothetical.
The basis (which I think is less justifiable at the extremes) is that a server at Denny’s is generally less skilled, knowledgeable, and capable than one who works at The French Laundry. So even though it is, strictly speaking, just as easy serving a $400 bottle of wine as it is to serve a $20 one, the customer ordering the expensive bottle probably got a detailed sales pitch extolling the virtues of that wine (and any others they inquired about), coupled with an elaborate presentation.
Also, a server at a super high-end restaurant likely splits their tips with many more people (eg. sommelier, captains, etc.), has less turnover, has fewer tables at once, has fewer peak shifts, and has more prep work. Their hourly pay is not as high as one might think, but still probably higher than it should be, but, I think most customer at those high-end places prefer the system of tipping rather than one in which a similar cost was built into the price. Honestly, I think most people would rather get a bill for $200 on which they would tip $40, than to get a bill for $230 total.
That basis makes some sense if you’re talking about Denny’s vs The French Laundry. It doesn’t really make sense if you are talking about a $200 bottle of wine vs a $300 bottle with the same waiter at the same restaurant.
Don’t change the question, Shagnasty. jtgain is asking why the tip is 10x higher if you choose a bottle of wine that costs ten times as much. Your response is based on moving the setting to a different restaurant.
Every restaurant I’ve visited that has a good wine list has a big spread of pricing. Their most-expensive bottle is many times pricier than their least-expensive bottle. The question I believe jtgain was asking is: “If I’m sitting at the same table in the same restaurant ordering off the same wine list from the same server, why does he get tipped ten times as much for the $200 wine when he does the exact same amount of work as if I’d ordered the $20 wine.”
This, again, is a regionalism. We’ve mentioned earlier in this thread that some states (like Montana) require servers to be paid full minimum wage. Some states (again, like Montana) also do not permit mandatory tip-sharing.
As I said, it less defensible at the extremes, but even in your example, I think there is some logic to it. In many cases, the waiter is selling someone on that bottle. They are trained to steer you towards something you will love, so if they do that successfully, it can be argued they deserve a greater share in the profits as it is likely harder to sell someone on a $300 bottle of wine than it is a $150 bottle. It’s kinda like how a car salesmen will get a better commission if he can sell you on a more expensive car or upgrades. Or how a Realtor will get a greater commission on a more expensive house.
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:67, topic:650862”]
The question I believe jtgain was asking is: “If I’m sitting at the same table in the same restaurant ordering off the same wine list from the same server, why does he get tipped ten times as much for the $200 wine when he does the exact same amount of work as if I’d ordered the $20 wine.”
[/QUOTE]
Generally, different people are buying each bottle. Very few people are deciding between a $20 bottle and a $200 one (not to mention most restaurants will not have a spread that large, at those prices, as it indicates genuine “quality” differences). As such, the customers need to be sold on a bottle in different ways. Price sensitive customers need to be steered towards something they will value and appreciate. The waiter attempts to match the right wine to the right customer. People with money to burn often want to like the story of the wine. They want to know who else drinks it, how rare it is, why someone as great as them should order it. Selling a wine at different price points often takes different skills. As such, there is a greater return for someone who can sell a more expensive bottle. Doesn’t mean a linear tipping scale makes strict sense all the time, but it does indicate the general effectiveness of waiter pitching the product.
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:67, topic:650862”]
This, again, is a regionalism. We’ve mentioned earlier in this thread that some states (like Montana) require servers to be paid full minimum wage. Some states (again, like Montana) also do not permit mandatory tip-sharing.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t believe your last point is accurate. Secondly, I think it is clear that what I and others have stated is not gonna cover every situation, in every state, at every time. The point was that people asking why a guy at Daniel should make much more than a guy at the Waffle House. The answer is that the former likely does not make as much as you would think (for the reasons outlined earlier), and that they are fundamentally different jobs.
Except that the waiter isn’t getting a share of the profit - that would come from the restaurant and not in the form of a tip. And while the car salesman may earn a greater commission if he sells me the more profitable car (not always the more expensive), it’s also from the dealership and not in the form of a tip. The realtor is also generally paid by the seller who benefits from the higher price, not the buyer. What you are essentially saying is that I’m expected to pay for the privilege of being upsold, which is very different from paying for superior knowledge or service which at least is sometimes defensible.
[/QUOTE]
But this is, in restaurants we are talking about, a distinction without a meaning. Why would it really matter if the restaurant charged you $200 with the expectation you would tip $40, or if they just charged you $240? Ultimately, the restaurant doesn’t care too much seeing as they are just happy to sell a more profitable bottle of wine. In this case, the incentives are aligned, so whether the front of the house staff is rewarded directly or indirectly is really not too important IMO.
The two things are not mutually exclusive. More importantly, you act as though you have no choice in being “upsold”. Nobody twists your arm to buy a more expensive house, add extra features to your new car, or order a more expensive bottle of wine. If you get upsold, it’s likely due (in part) to the persuasiveness of the person doing the selling. They should probably be rewarded for it.
And of course you are gonna pay more since you are ostensibly getting more.
Not important to the restaurant or the server or really even to me - I’m paying the same either way. But it doesn’t work as a justification for why I should “voluntarily” tip more for the same service if I buy the more expensive bottle of wine or the hamburger instead of the steak. There is no real justification beyond “that’s the way it’s always been”
But I’m not getting more from the waiter. That’s why I say I’m paying for the privilege of being upsold when you say that I should reward the waiter because he convinced me to buy the more expensive wine. (If he even convinced me- I may have walked in dead set on ordering that $300 bottle.) The knowledge, service etc provided to me by the waiter is exactly the same whether I choose the $200 bottle or the $300 bottle. The wine *itself *may be better- but that’s accounted for in the price of the bottle.
<OPINION>
1.)In a way they signed up for it so if they don’t want it than why the hell did they accept the job?
2.) It makes a lot of sense b/c they usually make good money (Above min.) with the tips they make, and if they makde no tips b/c no customers than again; don’t work there.
3.) Having the majority of your pay come from tips *should keep you on your toes, and in a way force you to do your job right. b/c if you dish-out shitty service than expect shitty tips…
-----------Unions-------------------
Most unions are for large companies; thus having a union for a EACH local restaurant is ridiculous. Not to mention that most just take your money for “union dues” and only represent you to save your ass from being fired (which you most likely deserved) and win you your job back over a slight technicality.
</OPINION>
It’s the same justification for why a Realtor makes more when the house sells for more money. They did nothing to give your house more inherent value, they just made someone else appreciate that value. A waiter, in many cases, does the same. The only difference is the negotiation is not over price, but rather over selection.
In some cases, you are right. But in many others, that is just not true. I think you just need to look at this the same way you look at housing or commission based sales in any other scenario. Is it always harder selling a $2mm house than a $500k one? No. Is the seller always “getting more” from the Realtor? No. But there are a significant number of cases where the above does not hold. More importantly, all the preparation, expertise, and salesmanship can be drawn from if needed. You reward these people because they are ready, willing, and able to make sales that will often be more probably to their employers. You are not paying for the privilege of being upsold anymore than you are when you buy a car or a house.
Generally, different people are buying each bottle. Very few people are deciding between a $20 bottle and a $200 one (not to mention most restaurants will not have a spread that large, at those prices, as it indicates genuine “quality” differences). As such, the customers need to be sold on a bottle in different ways. Price sensitive customers need to be steered towards something they will value and appreciate.
[/QUOTE]
I disagree with every part of your premise, but if it makes you happier, change it to $50 and $500 wine. There’s still a 10x difference in price and I can easily find a boatload of wine lists that include that kind of range.
Sure it takes skill to match a customer to a bottle of wine. Are you saying it requires ten times the work and ten times the training to sell a bottle of wine just because it costs ten times as much? I don’t think so.
I don’t believe your last point is accurate.
[/QUOTE]
My point is 100% accurate. My daughter called the Montana Department of Labor to verify it. Your links are to Federal law from 2010, which is irrelevant in this case. Just for kicks, though, here is a Federal link from 2012 that backs me up even on a Federal level.
Voluntary tip sharing/pooling is fine in Montana. If you are a server you may get together with the other servers and decide to divvy up your tips equally at the end of the night. You may also choose to give a portion of your tip money to the kitchen. But under Montana state law, that tip money belongs to the person that received it, and the restaurant/bar may not require them to give any or all of it to anyone else.
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:74, topic:650862”]
Sure it takes skill to match a customer to a bottle of wine. Are you saying it requires ten times the work and ten times the training to sell a bottle of wine just because it costs ten times as much? I don’t think so.
[/QUOTE]
Does Warren Buffet work tens of thousands of times harder than the average person? Or even hundreds of times harder than the average banker? Generally, no. As I said when I first posted, the tupping systems, like most systems, breaks down at the extremes. But in general, it’s not about how hard the work is, or even how much of it there is.
You generally need to pay your dues for a long time to get a job where you routinely sell $500 bottles of wine (or even $200 bottles), and to get there, you need to be superlative. You need to be educated in wine, detail-oriented, and an expert salesperson. Not every situation will call on your to exhibit your skills and knowledge, but the fact that you can is worth paying for. Just as an experienced nurse can do 90% of what a PCP does, it doesn’t mean we should pay them like doctors.
There are also the many circumstance where waiters are told to push a specific bottle of wine. In those cases, the difference between them and any other commission based salesperson is even smaller.
But to your specific point about it not being more “work” involved in pouring a $500 bottle vs. a $50 bottle. Even if I were to accept your argument broadly speaking, you are missing the point. People are rarely paid based the amount of work they do, and/or how hard it is. I don’t think that’s a fair critique given that it can be easily applied to almost every industry.
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:74, topic:650862”]
My point is 100% accurate. My daughter called the Montana Department of Labor to verify it. Your links are to Federal law from 2010, which is irrelevant in this case. Just for kicks, though, here is a Federal link from 2012 that backs me up even on a Federal level.
[/QUOTE]
You don’t read your own links. To quote the link:
Front of the house people (eg. the people I mentioned in my post, and those who are typically in tip-sharing pools) are exempt. Very few tip pools include cooks, dishwashers, or owners. So your refutation to my point is inaccurate. High-end servers typically do share their tips with more people.
You’re missing my point. If the wine steward/server is so good, shouldn’t he get the same tip whether he directs his customer to a $50 bottle or a $100 bottle or a $500 bottle? His (or her) job is to figure out what wine is best for the customer. Why should they get a bigger tip for pushing customers into buying more expensive drinks?
I read my links, and my refutation is completely 100% accurate. Go back to the comment that started this: I said your statement was a regionalism that didn’t apply in some places (like Montana). That point stands, and you’ve done nothing to refute it. No matter how fine the restaurant, a server in this state may not be required to share tips with ANYONE, whether it’s a chef, line cook, owner, dishwasher, wine steward, host(ess), busboy, or the busker on the street in front. Mandatory tip sharing is not legal here.
Regardless of the TIP% bull-shit I usually give a flat rate tip of 5~8 dollars.
Now I don’t buy $200 wine often, but if I was feeling like bawller than a fat tip wont bother me. Every once in a while you pass the money around… However I often dont tip at all if they give crappy service and im not a regular.
For regular things like haircuts I often tip double the amount (30%), and my hair always looks great, and they are very careful.
Again the seller pays the Realtor , and the seller absolutely benefits when the Realtor convinces me to raise my offer to $500K from the $400K I originally offered. And the car salesman doesn’t expect me to pay $500 extra for the stereo and also give him a $100 tip- if the dealership wants to compensate him, they share the profit from the more expensive stereo with him.
You’re not reading **Gary’**s posts correctly. Just because the DOL allows mandatory tip pooling doesn’t mean that any state must allow it - the DOL allows servers to be paid less than minimum wage but Montana or any other state or even city is free to require that servers be paid minimum wage or to set a minimum wage higher than the Federal one.
From the Montana Dept of Labor
In other words, voluntary tip pooling is permissible but the employer cannot mandate it.
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:76, topic:650862”]
You’re missing my point. If the wine steward/server is so good, shouldn’t he get the same tip whether he directs his customer to a $50 bottle or a $100 bottle or a $500 bottle? His (or her) job is to figure out what wine is best for the customer. Why should they get a bigger tip for pushing customers into buying more expensive drinks?
[/QUOTE]
For the same reasons a Realtor gets more from selling a more expensive house. Again, I don’t think the system is always defensible, but it’s no worse than many other conventions we have regarding sales. Since being a server at a high-end restaurant is more of a hospitality sales position than it is a job where you move plates form one place to another; servers are paid as such.
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:76, topic:650862”]
I read my links, and my refutation is completely 100% accurate. Go back to the comment that started this: I said your statement was a regionalism that didn’t apply in some places (like Montana).
[/QUOTE]
Now you are just being obtuse. I said:
[QUOTE=Me]
Also, a server at a super high-end restaurant likely splits their tips with many more people (eg. sommelier, captains, etc.)
[/QUOTE]
In Montana, and every other state AFAIK, tip sharing pools are legal when they only include FRONT OF THE HOUSE STAFF. A sommelier and a captain are generally considered front of the house staff. Other waiters would also be in that group. Your link does nothing to refute anything I have said. Please QUOTE where you link says mandatory tip sharing is illegal in Montana with front of the house staff. Don’t just flail about saying I am wrong. Please QUOTE and LINK TO the appropriate Montana statute. I will happily retract my statement when you do.
Here is another site backing my understanding of the law:
Feel free to actually post a relevant cite, or retract your claim.
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:76, topic:650862”]
That point stands, and you’ve done nothing to refute it. No matter how fine the restaurant, a server in this state may not be required to share tips with ANYONE, whether it’s a chef, line cook, owner, dishwasher, wine steward, host(ess), busboy, or the busker on the street in front. Mandatory tip sharing is not legal here.
[/QUOTE]
Wrong again. See another quote from your link:
See where it says MANDATORY? The distinction is made between types of employees and whether they may participate in mandatory tip pools, not whether such pools are strictly prohibited (they aren’t).
Why are you fixated on who pays (directly)? The buyer ALWAYS pays in both cases. Whether there is some intermediary is beside the point. Plus, tipping is not the convention in those fields. If it were, the same rules would likely be in place. The underlying point is whether the price of a sale should directly affect the compensation a salesperson gets if the price does always correspond to the amount, or difficulty of the work. Whether the compensation is built into the price, or is the result of a gratuity is irrelevant. If you think that a Realtor should make the same fee no matter the price of the house, or that every car salesperson should make the same on every sale, then I don’t know what to tell you.