Finally a relevant cite. I agree you link says what you claim it does, but going to the actual Montana Dept. of Labor does not seem to back that up. More importantly, your pdf address tip pooling, not tipping out. They are different.
Now, the relevant part is a tip-pool agreement. Employers cannot set up, or participate in a tip pool agreement, but one’s participation can be a necessary condition of employment.
So whatever law you want to state is fine, but the law was tested recently, and the restaurant won. Clearly, waiters can effective be forced to share tips in one form or another. Either way, going back and forth on what was a minor point is a waste of time. Even if some state decides to prohibit such arrangements, the point hold true for the vast majority of working servers.
I’m not fixated on who pays directly- but that is the reason why your analogies to real estate agents and car salesman don’t work. The real estate agent and car salesman negotiate their pay- commissioned or not with their employers, and don’t depend on the customer’s generosity . If the real estate agent gets a 6% commission on a $500 K sale while another agent would have accepted 3% it’s the seller who retains less of the sale price while the buyer pays the same either way.
I don’t necessarily think the real estate agent should make the same no matter what the price of the house is - but I agree with you in part about the convention. We tip based on price because it’s the convention - which is just a fancy way of saying “we’ve always done it this way” . It has nothing to do with logic or justification- we’ve just always done it this way. You tip based on price, regardless of the work , knowledge,skill ,involved - unless you have a buy one get one free or some other coupon . In that case you tip based on what the price would have been if you didn’t have the coupon, because the coupon didn’t lessen the work, knowledge, skill etc. There’s no logic to any of it and the only justification is that “we’ve always done it this way” - which I said at 5:19pm. You’re the one who is desperately trying to find a* reason * why tips should be based on price
My link is from the actual Montana Department of Labor and Industry, Workplace Services Division.( see the “wsd.dli.mt” in the URL - Workplace Services Division Department of Labor and Industry Montana- a little backwards, in my opinion, but still clear enough) Search for “tip pooling”
A restaurant won a single lawsuit - and it’s not clear why.It’s certainly not clear that the restaurant won because mandatory tip pooling is legal. The jury may have decided she didn’t prove her case, or that she was fired for some other reason, or that she voluntarily agreed to the tip pool. If the restaurant had appealed the DOL decision to award the waitress back wages for the tips she was required to put into the pool, then you might be able to say the law was tested.
The are analogies; not the exact same thing. The relevant analogues are how the amount of work is not always related to the compensation, and that wages are often based on the sales price. Who is paying doesn’t really matter. Either way, tipping is not really generousity (on a macro level) at this point; it’s expected the same way a bonus or a commission is.
But a convention starts on some basis. It doesn’t just arose from the nothing. It certainly persists based in part on inertia, but the justifications for the system still generally hold.
I did link to the labor cite which seems to contradict your cite in part.
The restaurant was in the wrong before because they administer the pool, and because they included back of the house staff. The changes they mentioned rectified those problems.
Your cite doesn’t contradict mine at all. Yours says
It refers to a tip pool agreement, but doesn’t say anything one way or the other about mandatory tip pools. Montana absolutely does allow voluntary tip pools.
Your article says the owner “acknowledged in court some changes to the tip-sharing arrangement at Buffalo Wild Wings.” No judge ever ruled that the arrangement was in fact legal- at least not according to your cite.That would require legal action by the restaurant against the DOLI , not a lawsuit against the restaurant by a waitress.The restaurant could have won for any number of reason having nothing to do with the legality of mandatory tip-pooling.
Fair distinction. But as I said, your cite does not address tipping out or tip sharing, nor does it address the legality of pooling, sharing, or tipping out as a condition of employment, meaning it makes tipping out effectively mandatory in restaurants that choose to do it.
I don’t that that’s true given she was fired the next day, and the restaurant did not dispute their alleged reason for dismissal. Regardless, do you honestly think servers in high-end restaurants in Montana don’t share their tips on a regular basis? That was the original claim, and I dont think that has been disputed. We can go backs and forth on this legal issue all day, but the claim was more about policies that mitigate the high take home pay of high-end servers.
Good grief, brickbacon, what’s your stake in this and why won’t you accept any of the evidence?
Doreen already gave you the link. Since you seem to have trouble reading it, let me quote it here:
My daughter was working as a waitress and called the Montana Department of Labor and Industry for clarification. They confirmed that in this state ALL mandatory tip-sharing is illegal, whether you’re sharing with front-of-house, back-of-house, or anyone else.
You can quote all of the Federal law you want, but state law overrides. The tips belong to the employee who was tipped. Period. They can establish voluntary tip pooling if they so choose, but it may not be mandated by the employer.
You can quote all of the Federal law you want, but state law overrides. The tips belong to the employee who was tipped. Period. They can establish voluntary tip pooling if they so choose, but it may not be mandated by the employer.
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You quoted federal law.
Second, the Montana labor board is quoted in the article I linked to. A tip sharing scheme can be mandated as a condition of employment, making it effectively mandatory. Do you have any evidence that this is false? Or more importantly, are you refuting my claim that servers often have to share their tips in Montana and every other state? You are misunderstanding the reasons for the statute, and the guidelines for how tip sharing comes to exist in places where is can be restricted.
In the article you linked to, the Montana labor board says very clearly exactly what I’m saying:
A jury chose to override that in this particular case. However, the State of Montana said in this article, in a phone call with my daughter, and in the FAQ I linked to earlier, that employers can not mandate tip sharing or tipping pools in this state.
So I’m not so much refuting your claim as saying the same thing I’ve been saying since our argument began: your claim is a regionalism that applies to some parts of the United States, but not all.
Yes, the state law overrides when it is more restrictive and does not come in conflict. For example, Federal law mandates a minimum wage of $7.25. Montana law mandates $7.80. That means you can’t pay a worker in Montana $7.25 per hour.
In the article you linked to, the Montana labor board says very clearly exactly what I’m saying:
A jury chose to override that in this particular case. However, the State of Montana said in this article, in a phone call with my daughter, and in the FAQ I linked to earlier, that employers can not mandate tip sharing or tipping pools in this state.
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Why do you keep citing your daughter as if she is some kind of authority?
The reality is that tip sharing is the industry standard, especially at high end restaurants. Hence the quote from the Montana Restaurant Association.
Furthermore, you didn’t understand the full quote. As the bureau said:
So first, your claim that, “some states (again, like Montana) also do not permit mandatory tip-sharing” is not backed up by the evidence or reality. The distinction is how the practice is managed and/or started, and who participates in the system- not whether it’s mandatory or voluntary. The only point at which such a scheme would be voluntary is when one agrees to it as a condition of employment. Once you voluntarily agree to it, you must do it lest you be subject to termination.
As someone who worked in a restaurant for many years, and worked closely with someone who wrote internal policies on these types of issue for a major national restaurant chain, I can assure you that such policies are the de facto reality in most places. Such systems are in no meaningful way “voluntary”, and no labor bureau pdf is gonna change that.
Going back to the part you quoted:
When you are hired as a waiter, you will often have to agree to a tip pool AS A CONDITION OF GETTING YOUR JOB. That means that the pooling is effectively mandatory as you can be dismissed for not participating. Now I am sure you are gonna try to wiggle out of this be claiming your daughter called the governor of Montana, but the bottom line is that such arrangements are common, legal, and effectively mandatory.
So I’m not so much refuting your claim as saying the same thing I’ve been saying since our argument began: your claim is a regionalism that applies to some parts of the United States, but not all.
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More importantly, even if I were to grant Montana outlaws such things, despite their demonstrated widespread existence, that does not make such tip sharing schemes “regional”. Not only because, Montana, a state with a population of 1 million is hardly representative of the nation, but also because it’s not a region.
Regardless, I granted your overarching point in my first response to you:
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I don’t believe your last point is accurate. Secondly, I think it is clear that what I and others have stated is not gonna cover every situation, in every state, at every time. The point was that people asking why a guy at Daniel should make much more than a guy at the Waffle House. The answer is that the former likely does not make as much as you would think (for the reasons outlined earlier), and that they are fundamentally different jobs"
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Yet, you continued this crusade for some odd reason. The fact is that tip sharing is not regional. It’s an accepted standard. And it’s why many high-end waiters don’t make as much as one would think.
Yes, the state law overrides when it is more restrictive and does not come in conflict. For example, Federal law mandates a minimum wage of $7.25. Montana law mandates $7.80. That means you can’t pay a worker in Montana $7.25 per hour.
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Provisionally. If a business grosses under $110K, it can pay $4/hr, according to us-dol.
I have dined in many of these states, from Maryland to Florida to Washington. In the four killer states of NV, CA, OR and WA, where waitstaff must be paid in excess of $8/hr no exceptions, the menu prices at any given restaurant are not higher than any of the 35 or so other states I have dined in. Prices are based on what the business can draw, not what the waitstaff will cost, it varies from one location to the next, except for the Dennyses, Famous Dave’ses, Red Lobsters, etc. Funny thing, though, that “old country store” chain does not seem to have any restaurants in those 4 particular states.
sigh This really isn’t worth my time, brickbacon, and I have no idea why you’ve turned it into such a huge deal. I’ve backed everything I said with documentation from the State of Montana, and if you won’t accept it, the discussion is completely moot.
I officially concede that your personal experiences constitute the absolute and final word for all jurisdictions everywhere. You win. I’ll call the state and tell them to change the information they give out to workers.
Two more quick things, though:
I have not in any case cited her as an authority of any kind. She’s a bartender, not a lawyer. I cited the Montana Department of Labor. In an attempt to properly disclose the details of my citation, I included the information that it was her and not me that actually made the phone call. I apologize for providing backup information that might confuse you.
Of course, because the word “regional” only applies to things that you, personally, approve as having adequate population to qualify as a region, not to “an administrative area, division, or district.” I’ll give the dictionaries a call and tell them to change it in their next printing.
i waited tables in the south for 7 years… rednecks arent good tippers. some days id make 7 dollars and was practically homeless. many employers even big name restaurants will tell you to claim that you made more money, or you will be fired! and theres nothing you can do about it!
Claiming that you made more money than you actually did makes no sense at all.
It takes more money from your taxes.
If you get your tips via your check they’d pay out more than they brought in (in tips)
Their payroll taxes would go up.
Their worker’s comp rates would increase.
If you go on unemployment or get hurt you’d get paid more while you’re off work which would raise their rates even higher.
On top of all that, it’s fraud on several counts.
What’s the upside for the employer to tell you to claim more tips than you brought in?