What in the everlovin’ blueeyed world have I done or said to make you feel this way? It’s true that as a long-time ex-Libertarian I have a lot of problems with your political/economic views, and sometimes I find your religious ideas to be somewhat annoyingly pedantic or disturbingly incoherent, but hate you? I don’t even mildly dislike you; in fact, when I see your name in a thread I always open that thread first to see what you’ve got to say. Anyway this is just a message board; I’m sure that if we met in person we’d get along fine. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to call you on it when I think you’ve said something off the wall; that’s what debates are about.
I didn’t say that you were. I said that you may be. What prompted me to say that are these words – posted 46 minutes after a post from a Jehovah’s Witness. If you intended them to be supportive, encouraging, or welcoming, that didn’t quite come across:
Of course your coldness may have had nothing to do with this person’s being a Jehovah’s Witness. But it was unkind, wasn’t it?
By the way, Dwight Eisenhower was brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness and was sworn in on what was referred to as a “Jehovah’s Witness Bible.” It was not the New World Translation but may have been a King James Version published by Watchtower Bible and Tract. I’m uncertain. He eventually became a Presbyterian, I believe. Maybe the Bible he used belonged to his mother. That’s a possibility.
The JWs didn’t publish a variation of the King James bible. DDE’s mother was a JW and the first translations made by JWs were done in 6 volumes from 1950 through 1960. (They may have been restricted to the Christian Greek Scrpitures.)
The first single volume translation was released in 1961. This complete single volume is known as the NWT. It has been revised since, the latest in 1984 I believe.
(Those revisions deal mainly with reference work and footnotes etc)
If DDE used a “Jehovah’s Witness Bible”, it may have been one of the partial translations that comprised the original 6 volumes, as opposed to the complete bible that was released in 1961.
I’m not too familiar with with the JW beliefs other than passing mention by others. Can you suggest any reading that might educate me. You seem very sincere and I appreciate the tone of your posts. I am a former Christian whose beliefs have changed pretty significantly over years of independent study.
There’s little doubt in my mind that our emotions play a large part in what makes up our individual belief system. The world is full of examples of people who have spent years studying the Bible but ultimately come to very different conclusions.
I’m particularly interested in your statement that JW beliefs are supported in the KJV. Most denominations believe their varied belief systems are supported by the Bible by selectively interpreting the verses to fit preconceived ideas. What’s your take on that phenomenon? I’ve studied the NT quite a bit myself and come away with something much different than traditional Christianity. I’ve also studied where the Bible came from which was very helpful in determining what them Bible is and what it isn’t.
By “witnessing”, I meant the board’s usage of the term: posting in GD for the purpose of sharing testimony rather than for debating. The homonymal aspect of the term was purely coincidental.
Maybe. But given my nearly 8-year-long consistent acknowledgment of the validity of every theological worldview from paganism to atheism, assuming the worst about what I meant might have been an unkindness all its own.
point 1 - They are certainly self appointed. By self, I mean their own body of peers, who think like them, appoint them experts by saying “You think the same way we do, and you understand our teachings very well”. Just like back in the day, medieval times, when what we know as modern astronomy was not accepted because the self-appointed experts of the time rejected it. “You don’t think like we do, and therefore are not an expert”. It wasn’t until later that we saw how right those non-experts were.
point 2 - Well sure you can modify your behavior with a change in the chemicals…but it still doesn’t satisfy my inquiry as to why they’re there in the first place if we’re just evolved to survive the best. Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to.
point 3 - You’re *sure * it is a side effect? Well your assuredness isn’t enough to convince me, that’s all.
I believe there is far too much unnecessary (but enjoyable) stuff in our world, and within our selves, to deny the existence of someone above us setting things up for our enjoyment. The conversation relating to why the world isn’t very enjoyable right now, however, is a whole new thread. Or maybe a whole new forum. Let’s try and contain our tangential threads of thought somewhat.
Well, my guest member ship is up on the 1st of Februrary, so I’m gonna have to take the easy way out of this one. www.watchtower.org has plenty of good reading for you. (that’s my first linky, I wonder if it came out ok? I can’t edit… )Also, next time a Witness comes to the door, lend an ear. Ask them to come back, or even to stay a while if you’ve got the time. We’re known for going door to door to bring this information to people who really want it. Somewhere on that website is an address you can write to to request information, maybe even an email address…I’m not sure, I’ve never had to do it myself .
There are many different denominations that study the Bible and come to very different conclusions. I’ve been sent several books that all quote scripture to support beliefs. It’s the conclusions they draw from interpretations that I can’t agree with. When they string various scriptures together and claim X+Y=Z they are certain and sincere, but IMO their conclusion is far from obvious or far from the only possible meaning.
So you don’t debate because you are seeking those interested in learning. That’s a nice phrase but seems to mean that you’re looking for people who will accept what you tell them as true but those who might be knowledgeable and be able to teach you something are not all that welcome to express themselves.
What if someone is willing to listen to your beliefs but wants you to give his equal time, using the same Bible of course?
Well I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t had many good experiences. My point is this - you can spend a million years studying something, but if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you’ll never find it.
The Bible is the only religious work that addresses these problems (religious confusion, attitudes of individuals towards one another, progressive revealing of information that’s been sitting here for thousands of years, and the biggie - prophecy) all together. Problem is nobody just “knows” off the top of their head where to look for this stuff. Nobody “knows” even after looking for a while. Then, if you find it, you may not understand it. It won’t be found by those who are looking for the wrong reasons. The Bible says that these things are “sacred secrets” that are only revealed by God to the right individuals when the time is right. It’s up to you to make yourself the right individual; it’s based on the condition of your heart and your motivations. If you need scriptural citations, sorry, I don’t have time to look them up now, I’m at work. Ask the next witness at your door. Really, print this out and ask them.
I am in no way impugning your motives, or the condition of your heart. I’m just saying why certain people “get it”, and others don’t. If you have a copacetic relationship with atheism, well then, you have no reason to want to change, right? Some people just don’t want answers. When given them, they just don’t buy them. That’s your right - it’s called free will. It’s not up to us to judge another’s choices. Thankfully, God’s got a plan for that.
I have a slight bone to pick here. Over the months I’ve seen you interject in Christian and Bible oriented threads usually with a request for some extensive efforts by the person who may have posted a biblical passage with an interpretation you don’t agree with. I can appreciate someone who has done extensive studies and has knowledge in a certain area. Thats a big part of what this message board is all about. Fighting ignorance and all that.
My problem with you is that you make requests that require some significant effort from the poster without seeming willing to make that effort yourself. You’ve mentioned before that your time is limited. Fair enough. Perhaps you shouldn’t request efforts by others that you can’t give yourself. Perhaps rather than requesting they defend their posts in depth including context , you might just offer your own well informed view, with context.
In a recent thread Bart Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” came up and you requested some support for some of the concepts presented in his book that had been mentioned. I took the time to give you what you requested but never saw you return to the thread to comment on my efforts. You also mentioned you had no intention of reading the book. That’s completely up to you, but it seems a little one sided to me for you to constantly comment on people’s lack of real Biblical knowledge while flatly refusing to read a book by an acknowledged Biblical scholar containing some fairly significant views about a book that seems valuable to you. I think real Biblical knowledge can mean reading the Bible cover to cover several times, but should also contain a real grasp on how we got the Bible we have today, what are the theories on who wrote it, and what do the thousands of texts we have reveal about the true nature of this book.
No malice or serious criticism intended here. Just an observation and an opinion. YMMV.
If someone is truly interested in learning what the Bible has to say, then discussion is inevitable. *Heated debate * however, is not useful. Most Witnesses have no problem listening to another’s point of view. How else would we know where in the Bible to direct them to find the true answer? The thing is, the conclusions drawn by others and the scriptures used are always limited. Really, they are *always * limited. Not to sound righteous, but I’ve got experience…I go door to door. It just stubbornness that keeps people arguing. Fear of change and all that.
Funny experience: A couple was studying the Bible with a devout Born Again Christian. She studied for a whole year. When she was done with the first publication, she says “So let me get my books, I want equal time.” The couple was taken aback, almost irritated, but they realized that the only way to help this individual see what the Bible said was to use this individual’s literature and show how it did not agree with the Bible.
So, go ahead, if your at least talking to a Witness, let alone discussing, it’s a good thing. But it’s unlikely that after *studying * with a Witness you’ll still have any reason to do that. If we can’t answer the questions raised by your literature, or your educated offerings, we’ll find the answer as soon as possible. Nobody can hold everything in their head to refute all ideas.
This sounds very liberal and non judgmental on your part. That’s nice. Can you also see how condescending your choice of words is?It isn’t that some people don’t want answers friend. Many people have sought the answers just as sincerely and diligently as you and come to very different conclusions. It is up to you to decide what that means about your own path.
You are obviously a true believer when it comes to JW. If that path works for you that’s great. I know many fine people from different religions and quite a few with no religion. The details of their belief system doesn’t matter much. As you say, that will all work itself out. IMHO it’s perfectly normal and acceptable for different people to find different paths to the same source. we can honor the spirit within the person and the sincerity of their path even though it varies from out own.
Well, the only one that actually directs people to live in a way that is beneficial and cohesive. Promoting love of everyone, not just members of that religion. Not jihad-ing the infidels, not excluding unbelievers. A lifestyle of teaching others to observe Jehovah’s commandments because they are beneficial to us, as opposed to demanding our personal rights get observed the way *we * want.
“By its fruit you know a tree, likewise by their fruits you will know my followers” (paraphrase). Jesus said that, and it’s applicable to all other religions as well. See the fruits, or what the individuals actually do, and then you will know from what “tree” that religion sprung. Good intentions are nothing unless you have people who follow through on them. Jehovah’s Witnesses follow thruogh on what the Bible really teaches. That’s a lot more than anyone can say for other religions.
By the way, Muffin, luvyameenit so don’t get upset because we may not agree.
Like I said, perceptions are subjective.
)Also, next time a Witness comes to the door, lend an ear. Ask them to come back, or even to stay a while if you’ve got the time. We’re known for going door to door to bring this information to people who really want it. Somewhere on that website is an address you can write to to request information, maybe even an email address…I’m not sure, I’ve never had to do it myself 
.
