Why do we believe in God, when there is no scientific evidence of its existance

Great Debates
161

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
IMHO it’s perfectly normal and acceptable for different people to find different paths to the same source. we can honor the spirit within the person and the sincerity of their path even though it varies from out own.
[/QUOTE]

Sure, in Earthly dealings between people. But not so with God. He said so. His Son seconded the motion.

Jesus said that the broad and spacious road would lead into destruction, and the cramped and narrow one would lead into life. Many go through the broad one, few go through the other. How do *you * interpret that? (Mathew 7:13) Actually, keep right on reading to verse 23. *That * is my point. Well, God’s actually.

Also, I never realize how condescending my choice of words is…it’s the cause of my arguments with my wife. I’ve only been studying for 2-1/2 years now, I’ve got progress to make regarding my personality, to be sure. :smack:

162

[QUOTE=echo6160]
If someone is truly interested in learning what the Bible has to say, then discussion is inevitable. *Heated debate * however, is not useful. Most Witnesses have no problem listening to another’s point of view. How else would we know where in the Bible to direct them to find the true answer? The thing is, the conclusions drawn by others and the scriptures used are always limited. Really, they are *always * limited. Not to sound righteous, but I’ve got experience…I go door to door. It just stubbornness that keeps people arguing. Fear of change and all that.

Funny experience: A couple was studying the Bible with a devout Born Again Christian. She studied for a whole year. When she was done with the first publication, she says “So let me get my books, I want equal time.” The couple was taken aback, almost irritated, but they realized that the only way to help this individual see what the Bible said was to use this individual’s literature and show how it did not agree with the Bible.

So, go ahead, if your at least talking to a Witness, let alone discussing, it’s a good thing. But it’s unlikely that after *studying * with a Witness you’ll still have any reason to do that. If we can’t answer the questions raised by your literature, or your educated offerings, we’ll find the answer as soon as possible. Nobody can hold everything in their head to refute all ideas.
[/QUOTE]

I appreciate your sincerity. I agree that heated debate isn’t usually helpful. Both parties have to make a real effort to listen to the other with a desire to understand their views.

What I’m talking about is someone who already believes , as you do, that they know what the Bible has to say. I have a little experience myself. I’ve had plenty of discussions with other true believers. I’ve read a few books that were given to me to help me “see the light” The one titled “Know the Truth” was interesting. If only what was inside actually reflected the title.

What it usually comes down to, in my experience, has been a different interpretation of certain scriptures. When someone says, “Well these passages conclusively show belief X to be true” and I say " I just don’t see those passages that way. My interpretation is Y and I think these other passages over here show that X probably isn’t true." then we’re at a stand still and there’s no point to continue. There really are multiple possible interpretations to Biblical passages. Some may be more probable than others based on more extensive study, but finally each person must decide what rings true to them.

It’s not always stubbornness that’s causes people to disagree. I imagine that often they just don’t agree with your interpretation and are just as sincere as your are. Perhaps you need to seek out people with above average Biblical knowledge and talk to them.
Regardless, I appreciate the link and in time will do some reading there. I like to understand beliefs from the source rather than hearsay.

163

[QUOTE=Muffin]
So does Bill Porter.

Experience selling a product does not mean that the product is a good product.

Experience selling a religion does not mean that god is real.
[/QUOTE]

That’s not what I said. I’ve got experience with people using limited information to try and prove a point that is wrong.

164

[QUOTE=echo6160]
Well, the only one that actually directs people to live in a way that is beneficial and cohesive. Promoting love of everyone, not just members of that religion. Not jihad-ing the infidels, not excluding unbelievers. A lifestyle of teaching others to observe Jehovah’s commandments because they are beneficial to us, as opposed to demanding our personal rights get observed the way *we * want.

“By its fruit you know a tree, likewise by their fruits you will know my followers” (paraphrase). Jesus said that, and it’s applicable to all other religions as well. See the fruits, or what the individuals actually do, and then you will know from what “tree” that religion sprung. Good intentions are nothing unless you have people who follow through on them. Jehovah’s Witnesses follow thruogh on what the Bible really teaches. That’s a lot more than anyone can say for other religions.

By the way, Muffin, luvyameenit so don’t get upset because we may not agree. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

I’m afraid that’s also incorrect. Have you ever seen a comparison of what Buddha taught to what Jesus taught?
Check out this and this
600 years before Jesus lived, Buddha taught many of the same life principles that Jesus taught, including loving everyone, and living in a way that is beneficial to all and in harmony with creation.

What do you suppose that coincidence means?

165

[QUOTE=echo6160]
That’s not what I said. I’ve got experience with people using limited information to try and prove a point that is wrong.
[/QUOTE]
I can’t speak for all people who answer their door in their bathrobes, but for myself, I am utterly incapable of giving a rational argument supported with proven facts at such a time. Unprepared doorstep debate? That would be laughable if it were not so annoying due to the disruption of sleep and daily activities.

166

[QUOTE=echo6160]
Sure, in Earthly dealings between people. But not so with God. He said so. His Son seconded the motion.

Jesus said that the broad and spacious road would lead into destruction, and the cramped and narrow one would lead into life. Many go through the broad one, few go through the other. How do *you * interpret that? (Mathew 7:13) Actually, keep right on reading to verse 23. *That * is my point. Well, God’s actually.
[/QUOTE]

Look at verses 1-12. especially 7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Each person must seek God, or seek truth and love, the essence of God, sincerely in their hearts
“John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
where do they seek?
Luke 17:21
nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."
I like the following verses as well. It tells us plainly to look for the spirit within the person based on their deeds, rather than whatever details of doctrine they espouse.

IMHO that means when a person of any religion or no religion exhibits qualities of love, compassion, and truthfulness I should celebrate the spirit within them. It means that the truth of who we are and where we are going is beyond labels doctrine and dogma, and reflected by the truest intent of our hearts.

The narrow path is a commitment to truth that lives within the heart and moves us in our day to day actions and choices. It is, however something unique within each person, yet common among those who are seekers. The broad path is to deny or avoid the true consequences of our actions and our own inner voice. Choosing tradition over truth is part of that. Seeking or clinging to the approval of any group, even a well intentioned one, over our own inner voice is another.

I feel ya on that count. Learning how best to communicate our ideas is a process of constant learning. My own listening skills could be better.

167

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I’m afraid that’s also incorrect. Have you ever seen a comparison of what Buddha taught to what Jesus taught?
Check out this and this
600 years before Jesus lived, Buddha taught many of the same life principles that Jesus taught, including loving everyone, and living in a way that is beneficial to all and in harmony with creation.

What do you suppose that coincidence means?
[/QUOTE]

Romans 2:13-16

(Bolding mine)

Nobody suggested that people couldn’t be nice to others of their own initiative. The Bible recognizes this. What part of Bhuddism suggests that the followers preach this “wonderful way of living” to other people, and help them come to an accurate understanding of it? Why not share what you have?

Like I said, I will compare all other teachings against the one I know to be true. Just because someone else is close, doesn’t mean they get the cigar.

168

[QUOTE=Muffin]
I can’t speak for all people who answer their door in their bathrobes, but for myself, I am utterly incapable of giving a rational argument supported with proven facts at such a time. Unprepared doorstep debate? That would be laughable if it were not so annoying due to the disruption of sleep and daily activities.
[/QUOTE]

Those unprepared to talk, I do not talk to. They’re busy, I’m not there to irritate them. However, those who spend a good 10minutes at the door with me clearly have a few minutes, and in those ten minutes I usually hear the same one or two Trinity-based scriptures thrown out there, more than once, or some other unsupported doctrine.

Do you honestly think I came to this conclusion based on the reactions of bathrobe clad door-slammers? There is much more to it than that.

This is a hopeless point to pursue. No offense, but there’s just no progress to be made here on either of our parts, so I give up.

169

[QUOTE=echo6160]
Romans 2:13-16

(Bolding mine)

Nobody suggested that people couldn’t be nice to others of their own initiative. The Bible recognizes this. What part of Bhuddism suggests that the followers preach this “wonderful way of living” to other people, and help them come to an accurate understanding of it? Why not share what you have?

Like I said, I will compare all other teachings against the one I know to be true. Just because someone else is close, doesn’t mean they get the cigar.
[/QUOTE]

Nice passage. Thanks. That is my point.

Like the teachings of Christ, Buddhism suggests the best preaching is in the actual living of it’s principles. Preach by example. also
“walk monks, throughout the land for the blessing of the people, for the happiness of the people , and out of compassion for the world”

sound familiar?
there are other examples. Buddha instructed his followers to teach others.

IMHO we are all seeing through a glass darkly as Paul said. Knowing that I examine myself and claim my own path while trying not to criticize the path of others. Who am I to judge the validity of their path? I went through Christianity, examined other possibilities to get where I am now. If someone else’s path to truth leads them through another religion or no religion that’s okay. Their actions and their intent reveal who they are. As Jesus said. Those are the things I try to address.

Being to sure of what you know to be “the one” bothers me, but that’s just me.

Since Buddhism was around 600 years before Christianity perhaps man’s widely varied interpretation of what Jesus taught is the one that close with no cigar.
Perhaps all religions still fall far short and we are all children of the same source trying to find our way.

170

echo6160, your sect is not alone when it comes to door-to-door sales. As set out in the Oahspe: “Book of Fragapatti, Son of Jehovih”: XIV:6 “To Thee, O Jehovih, are all things committed, even as from Thee they came forth. Thy Voice is ever upon all men, but they hear Thee not. Thine eye is observant of all men, but they believe it not. To teach men these simple things, is to make Gods of them. To open up their understanding, to find Thee, to know Thee, and to realize Thy Ever Presence, to become one with Thee, this is the labor with Thy Gods, and Thy Lords, and Thy holy angels.”

I’ve had Mormons, Hare Krishnas, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and Scientologists knocking at my door with their sales pitches. Your sect is just one of a great many religious sects, some of which use door-to-door sales tactics, and some of which do not. Just variations on a theme.

Perhaps door-to-door selling of religion does some good when it finds shut-ins who are in need of assistance in their daily functioning. Perhaps door-to-door selling of religion does some harm by rooking in people who are not able to defend themselves from people who surprise them at their doors. Either way, good or bad or a mix of both, door-to-door selling of religion is simply a sales tactic – a method of proselytizing. There is nothing in the sales tactic that would indicate whether the product itself is a good one or not, let alone whether there is a god or not.

In my jurisdiction we have cooling down laws concerning purchases made from door-to-door salesmen, out of concern that door-to-door selling can be a predatory tactic – just keep knocking on doors until you find someone having a weak moment, and then pressure that unprepared person into buying something that the person might normally neither need nor want. In short, the law was made to protect the vulnerable from door-to-door salesmen. Let’s recognize door-to-door sales tactics for what they are, and not confuse them with reasoned debate in which all parties have the opportunity to fully reflect upon the other parties’ statements, and to fully prepare their own statements, as we have here at the SDMB.

Rather than give up, why not join the SDMB?

171

[QUOTE=Muffin]
echo6160, your sect is not alone when it comes to door-to-door sales. As set out in the Oahspe: “Book of Fragapatti, Son of Jehovih”: XIV:6 “To Thee, O Jehovih, are all things committed, even as from Thee they came forth. Thy Voice is ever upon all men, but they hear Thee not. Thine eye is observant of all men, but they believe it not. To teach men these simple things, is to make Gods of them. To open up their understanding, to find Thee, to know Thee, and to realize Thy Ever Presence, to become one with Thee, this is the labor with Thy Gods, and Thy Lords, and Thy holy angels.”

I’ve had Mormons, Hare Krishnas, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and Scientologists knocking at my door with their sales pitches. Your sect is just one of a great many religious sects, some of which use door-to-door sales tactics, and some of which do not. Just variations on a theme.

Perhaps door-to-door selling of religion does some good when it finds shut-ins who are in need of assistance in their daily functioning. Perhaps door-to-door selling of religion does some harm by rooking in people who are not able to defend themselves from people who surprise them at their doors. Either way, good or bad or a mix of both, door-to-door selling of religion is simply a sales tactic – a method of proselytizing. There is nothing in the sales tactic that would indicate whether the product itself is a good one or not, let alone whether there is a god or not.

In my jurisdiction we have cooling down laws concerning purchases made from door-to-door salesmen, out of concern that door-to-door selling can be a predatory tactic – just keep knocking on doors until you find someone having a weak moment, and then pressure that unprepared person into buying something that the person might normally neither need nor want. In short, the law was made to protect the vulnerable from door-to-door salesmen. Let’s recognize door-to-door sales tactics for what they are, and not confuse them with reasoned debate in which all parties have the opportunity to fully reflect upon the other parties’ statements, and to fully prepare their own statements, as we have here at the SDMB.

Rather than give up, why not join the SDMB?
[/QUOTE]

I get the analogy but it seems unrealistic. Sure someone might decide to accept a religion based on a knock on the door. That might be good or bad but it’s still their choice and they can change their minds at any time.

I’ve been to the tent meetings where evangelicals tried to get people to say the prayer of salvation so they could talk about how many souls were brought to God. The number of people who continued in the teaching was a different number altogether.

You’re right. No door to door preaching or teaching speaks to the validity of the message.

172

[QUOTE=echo6160]
Those unprepared to talk, I do not talk to.
[/QUOTE]

That’s how I find most Jehovah’s Witnesses – reluctant to use critical thinking.

The Watchtower, August 1, 1980, p. 19:
“Thus, the one who doubts to the point of becoming an apostate sets himself up as a judge. He thinks he knows better than his fellow Christians, better also than the ‘faithful and discreet slave,’ through whom he has learned the best part, if not all that he knows about Jehovah God and his purposes.”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 12
“Do you wisely destroy apostate material?”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 14
“Why is reading apostate publications similar to reading pornographic literature?”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 17
“Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions.”

I have regularly attend various religion’s/sect’s ceremonies, repeatedly sat with elders of other religions to receive their teachings, and studied various religions and religious texts both on my own, in unstructured groups, and in formal academic settings. If you were to do this on a frequent and ongoing basis, would that put you at risk of disfellowship?

173

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Nice passage. Thanks. That is my point.

Like the teachings of Christ, Buddhism suggests the best preaching is in the actual living of it’s principles. Preach by example. also
“walk monks, throughout the land for the blessing of the people, for the happiness of the people , and out of compassion for the world”

sound familiar?
there are other examples. Buddha instructed his followers to teach others.

<snip>

Since Buddhism was around 600 years before Christianity perhaps man’s widely varied interpretation of what Jesus taught is the one that close with no cigar.
Perhaps all religions still fall far short and we are all children of the same source trying to find our way.
[/QUOTE]

This is the last day of my guest membership. This conversation will have to end unfortunately, as I don’t think I’ll be joining. The only way I can personally justify the 10 or 15 bucks a month is to spend more time on this board than I think I’m willing to. I’ve been sucked in too far already! :wink:

The questions are: **Do ** the monks teach others? Really? Today? All across the world? With any effectiveness? In all the different languages?

Intent is far removed from accomplishment. Check the site I linked you to and see how widespread the preaching of the Witnesses is, and check up on *why * it is that way.

Nice chatting with you all, but I’ve got to get back to being paid to work… :eek:

174

[QUOTE=Muffin]
That’s how I find most Jehovah’s Witnesses – reluctant to use critical thinking.

The Watchtower, August 1, 1980, p. 19:
“Thus, the one who doubts to the point of becoming an apostate sets himself up as a judge. He thinks he knows better than his fellow Christians, better also than the ‘faithful and discreet slave,’ through whom he has learned the best part, if not all that he knows about Jehovah God and his purposes.”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 12
“Do you wisely destroy apostate material?”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 14
“Why is reading apostate publications similar to reading pornographic literature?”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 17
“Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions.”

I have regularly attend various religion’s/sect’s ceremonies, repeatedly sat with elders of other religions to receive their teachings, and studied various religions and religious texts both on my own, in unstructured groups, and in formal academic settings. If you were to do this on a frequent and ongoing basis, would that put you at risk of disfellowship?
[/QUOTE]

One last thing before I sign off and go back to just reading.

The answer to your question is yes, and for this reason.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17

We try to live our lives by the Bible. Since the Bible says this, we do it. Pretty simple right? Actually living by the standards you agree to is not such a bad thing. It indicates integrity. There’s nothing wrong with talking to these individuals (elders of other religions), however, having a pow-wow about the best ways to learn their doctrines indicates a lack of faith in one’s own beliefs. How can any group of indiviudals maintain cohesion if this activity is permitted?

Would spending time with high ranking officials of known terrorist organizations get you on a watch list from your particular gov’t? Maybe even get you labelled a traitor, or defector?

Not that I’m comparing other religions to terrorist organizations, just drawing the comparison that the *principle * exists outside of the Bible and therefore should not be completely misunderstood by even an atheist.

And if you don’t mind, could you provide evidence of *my * lack of critical thinking? I chose this path after 23 years of unstructured, undirected life. I know fully what I’m leaving, and what I’m entering. I’ll see you later - one way or another.

175

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I get the analogy but it seems unrealistic. Sure someone might decide to accept a religion based on a knock on the door. That might be good or bad but it’s still their choice and they can change their minds at any time. .
[/QUOTE]

That raises a troublesome issue, for when the door-to-door sales tactics, that identify people who are susceptible to manipulation, are combined with a gradual introduction into a warm and friendly group, which is then combined with a top-down authoritarian structure that threatens disfellowship if one considers “contrary opinions”, then I have to wonder to what degree a person is free to change his or her mind. At what point does a sect slip into being a cult? Once a stong emotional relationship is established with one’s fellow worshipers, shunning becomes a terribly powerful weapon to use against free, critical thought.

176

[QUOTE=Muffin]
That raises a troublesome issue, for when the door-to-door sales tactics, that identify people who are susceptible to manipulation, are combined with a gradual introduction into a warm and friendly group, which is then combined with a top-down authoritarian structure that threatens disfellowship if one considers “contrary opinions”, then I have to wonder to what degree a person is free to change his or her mind. At what point does a sect slip into being a cult? Once a stong emotional relationship is established with one’s fellow worshipers, shunning becomes a terribly powerful weapon to use against free, critical thought.
[/QUOTE]

I’m beginning to think that you are manipulating me into staying at the SDMB!!!

If this premise is true,

What is the point of expanding into areas where people cannot make any financial contribution, but in fact are a huge financial drain due to the building of Kingdom Halls, printing literature, etc.? Like Africa…or why would the organization be so strong in areas where it is under governmental ban, like it was in Soviet Russia?

Why does *nobody * in the organization get paid?

Are your family issues so deep rooted that any sense of love and security you get outside of what you deem normal considered suspect?

Top-down authoritarian? You’ve clearly missed the point. People need direction, nothing gets accomplished without leadership.

“Oh dear, I think I just realized that the elders are manipulating me into staying with all these nice people, and they somehow tricked me into coming to these meetings where we learn how to be kind to one another, and they are forcing me to accept high moral standards and then actually hold myself accountable to them, and they won’t leave me alone when I get depressed or sick, and, and…”

Please… :rolleyes:

177

Welcome to the SDMB! :slight_smile:

178

[QUOTE=echo6160]
What is the point of expanding into areas where people cannot make any financial contribution, but in fact are a huge financial drain due to the building of Kingdom Halls, printing literature, etc.? Like Africa…or why would the organization be so strong in areas where it is under governmental ban, like it was in Soviet Russia?

Why does *nobody * in the organization get paid?
[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witness is in the business of promoting its brand of religion, so success is not measured in dollars.

[QUOTE=echo6160]
Are your family issues so deep rooted that any sense of love and security you get outside of what you deem normal considered suspect?
[/quote]
Nah, I have a wonderful family, and friends of a wide variety of religious and non-religious beliefs. My concern is that a strong sense of personal community should not be held at ransom based on one’s questioning of religious beliefs. That’s when personal community turns to cult.

[QUOTE=echo6160]
Top-down authoritarian? You’ve clearly missed the point. People need direction, nothing gets accomplished without leadership.
[/quote]
Not when the authority is providing me with the “answers” while at the same time directing me not to give serious consideration to alternatives. I have grave concern when the authority directs: "“Do you wisely destroy apostate material?”, “Why is reading apostate publications similar to reading pornographic literature?”, “Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions.”

[QUOTE=echo6160]
“Oh dear, I think I just realized that the elders are manipulating me into staying with all these nice people, and they somehow tricked me into coming to these meetings where we learn how to be kind to one another, and they are forcing me to accept high moral standards and then actually hold myself accountable to them, and they won’t leave me alone when I get depressed or sick, and, and…”
[/QUOTE]
Actually, my exact words were:

The thing is, your particular sect, which works for you, and which works for a great many other people, does not work for everyone. Your sect is not willing to recognize this.

Which brings us back to my initial question of what is it about our brains that make people be this way? What is it that makes you so certain of the supremacy of your particular brand of religion, while other people are equally certain of the supremacy their various brands of religion? Within the Judeo-Christian-Islam sphere, why do so many different brands of religion all emerge from the same roots, but then go on to claim supremacy to the exclusion of all others? What, other than the circular argument of god, is it that causes people to believe in god, and for some to passionately believe that their god is the god and that some other fellow’s god is not the god?

179

[QUOTE=echo6160]
One last thing before I sign off and go back to just reading.

The answer to your question is yes, and for this reason.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17

We try to live our lives by the Bible. Since the Bible says this, we do it. Pretty simple right? Actually living by the standards you agree to is not such a bad thing. It indicates integrity. There’s nothing wrong with talking to these individuals (elders of other religions), however, having a pow-wow about the best ways to learn their doctrines indicates a lack of faith in one’s own beliefs. How can any group of indiviudals maintain cohesion if this activity is permitted?

Would spending time with high ranking officials of known terrorist organizations get you on a watch list from your particular gov’t? Maybe even get you labelled a traitor, or defector?

Not that I’m comparing other religions to terrorist organizations, just drawing the comparison that the *principle * exists outside of the Bible and therefore should not be completely misunderstood by even an atheist.

And if you don’t mind, could you provide evidence of *my * lack of critical thinking? I chose this path after 23 years of unstructured, undirected life. I know fully what I’m leaving, and what I’m entering. I’ll see you later - one way or another.
[/QUOTE]

I can understand your point.

If this works for you and is part of your personal growth I applaud that. My issue is when the group and it’s cohesiveness becomes more the object of worship than either truth or love.

My question might be what constitutes a believer or unbeliever as spoken of in these verses? It might be easily construed as a particular belief or doctrine but perhaps if we examine the teachings of Christ, say, the parable of the good Samaritan, we might discover a deeper meaning. Not accusing you or JW in general, but too often I see people defining their “group” as those who share details of doctrine rather than seeing that it is the behavior and the spirit within that truly defines us.

I understand. Felt the very same thing and it was great at the time. I felt like I was part of something large and meaningful and the church was my extended family. I had newly discovered purpose and direction. I have similar feelings now. I just see it’s larger than I originally thought.

I also see that the path I thought was the one path for all was simply my path. If we can call something the One true path, is is something within each individual.

180

[QUOTE=Muffin]
That raises a troublesome issue, for when the door-to-door sales tactics, that identify people who are susceptible to manipulation, are combined with a gradual introduction into a warm and friendly group, which is then combined with a top-down authoritarian structure that threatens disfellowship if one considers “contrary opinions”, then I have to wonder to what degree a person is free to change his or her mind. At what point does a sect slip into being a cult? Once a stong emotional relationship is established with one’s fellow worshipers, shunning becomes a terribly powerful weapon to use against free, critical thought.
[/QUOTE]

You are correct. That’s an astute observation. I think it often works that way but not always planned out. If a person is susceptible how able were they of critical thought to begin with? If joining a group meets some emotional needs for a time and gains them new experiences and education how bad is it? When and if people are ready to move on and abandon belief systems that no longer work for them they will.

BTW, I’m a salesman. Been in commissioned sales before for extended periods. It’s always been interesting for me to find the balance of my ethical beliefs and my livelihood. Where does my responsibility to myself, my customer, and my company, come together so everybody wins?
I usually try to provide useful information to help people make the best decision they can. I learned that quite a few people don’t want to make the decision on their own. They want you to tell them what is best for them. Others seem to have a clear grasp on what* they* want and have no problem making a choice and taking responsibility for it.

I see the comparison in religion. when I first got involved I listened intently to those whom I admired and trusted and pretty much believed 99% of what they said. It took a while to see that my beliefs were completely my responsibility and it was completely up to me to do the studying and inner search. It also requires trusting your ability to do so.