Why Do We Even Need an Establishment Clause?

[UltraVires]

@Trinopus

In the U.S., it leans toward Christianity. Alabama’s Justice Moore explicitly supports Christianity and that was his reason for his posting.

Also note that several of the ten commandments are specifically religious in nature; they aren’t all universally acceptable principles such as “Don’t murder” or “Don’t perjure.”

The fact that more than one denomination revere this text doesn’t make it a secular text.

I agree. But how does such an acceptance by the local government of religious principles serve as an “establishment” of religion? Is an atheist put in jail for not observing the commandments or otherwise punished for not supporting all ten? Most of the people who vote for constructing the monument probably work on the Sabbath day or covet their neighbor’s wife’s ass. Is a citizen harmed because he doesn’t practice all ten?

And I mentioned the practicality of it. The social pressure to conform because of having the monument is exactly the same if a court orders the monument to be removed. The same people are still in power.

Is the end result of all of this that we can have religious beliefs and act upon them only if we sufficiently hide it?

[MEBuckner]

@jtgain

How does posting the 10 Cs amount to an establishment of religion? If Looneyville, WV displays the 10 Cs on the courthouse square, what official religion has been established? Catholicism? Christianity in general? Judaism?

What benefits flow to these religions from their new state designation as the official religion of Looneyville? (again based solely on the display of the 10 Cs)

My point is that the current Establishment Clause precedent is a bastardized form of judicial history akin to children whispering to each other and the last child recounting something completely different from the first. I don’t believe the Constitution supports such a harsh “no religion in public life” policy by the plain text of the First Amendment.

@jtgain

That’s fair, and as usual, I appreciate your intellectual honesty and candor. But I want to talk about it in a more practical matter. Take Looneyville. We know that the majority of people in the Looneyville government are Christians and want to display the 10Cs on that basis.

So they display them and as an atheist you are some combination of offended or pressured to conform to social norms. You don’t like that a religious symbol is displayed which contradicts your own opinion on religious thought.

What pressures do you face? Do you feel the need to join a church so as not to offend the government? Pretend to bow your head at opening prayers held at non-governmental functions? Hide your atheism?

Even if the display is removed, aren’t you still under the same social pressures? The people that wanted to display them are still in elected office. How is your situation (the hypothetical you) better because this largely ceremonial display is now removed?

What is your end goal? Can we ever remove the supposed pressures that you contend exist? What would that entail?

I can’t tell if you’re arguing that Ten Commandments monuments should be OK because they’re non-denominational or because they’re just symbolic.

Suppose Looneyville, WV, votes to post a big sign in the county courthouse that Looneyville is a Baptist community, and that the good citizens of Looneyville consider the Pope in Rome to be the Whore of Babylon and consider anything other than full-immersion baptism of persons who have attained the age of reason to be a snare of the Devil.

Note that even in West Virginia the town of Looneyville can’t actually round up all the Catholics and put them in jail, and there are no municipal ordinances to that effect. So, what will be accomplished by some smart-ass big city ACLU lawyer making them take down their sign, huh? Possibly some Catholic who lives in Looneyville (or is just passing through) might argue that the Looneyville Police Department unfairly discriminates against “Papists” (“Ooh, 36 in a 35 zone, huh? Guess that St. Christopher medal doesn’t do anything to make you a better driver! Here’s your ticket, ya mackerel snapper!”) but just taking down the big sign at the county courhouse about how Papists are all hell-bound idol-worshippers and followers of the Antichrist won’t actually directly do anything about any of that.

[Little_Nemo]

The establishment clause and the free exercise clause cover two separate things. The establishment clause prohibits the government from supporting a religion. The free exercise clause prohibits the government from opposing a religion.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@jtgain

How does posting the 10 Cs amount to an establishment of religion? If Looneyville, WV displays the 10 Cs on the courthouse square, what official religion has been established? Catholicism? Christianity in general? Judaism?

What benefits flow to these religions from their new state designation as the official religion of Looneyville? (again based solely on the display of the 10 Cs)

A vague message is still a message, and establishment is establishment regardless of whether it benefits anybody.

[Monty]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

A vague message is still a message, and establishment is establishment regardless of whether it benefits anybody.

And, at least in the UK, the state religion has official membership in Parliament. If the US were to jettison SOCAS, do you really think that a certain religious group or groups would not get similar treatment. It’s already a hard row fighting to protect SOCAS against some in all three branches of government now.

[Little_Nemo]

@jtgain

What benefits flow to these religions from their new state designation as the official religion of Looneyville? (again based solely on the display of the 10 Cs)

Symbols matter. Take somebody who wants to put up a Ten Commandments display in a government office and ask them how they’d feel if somebody put up a Shahada display? I’m sure most of them would vehemently oppose it.

They need to realize that non-Christians have as much reason to oppose their Christian symbol as they have to oppose a non-Christian symbol. If anything, non-Christians have more reason to oppose the encroachment of the majority religion into the government.