Newcomer, I guess I don’t understand a few points. If there was a conspiracy between the UK, France and Israel to instigate a war in Egypt, how is that criminal? And I thought the UK was caught with there pants down- hardly a compelling reason to believe there was a conspiracy for war.
No I don’t believe the Govt can hide anything for long. As has been said “Two people can keep a secret- as long as one is dead”.
There is a difference between establishing in March of 2003 that Bush W. was lying.
Or, establishing in August of 1964 that Lyndon Johnson was lying about Gulf of Tonkin incident. Etc. etc. etc…
The actual strength of hierarchy and power in US and its perception by citizenry somewhat perplexes me; it’s there, it’s strong, strongest in the World and brutally relentless yet so “understandable”.
What I find funny is that POTUS can get in trouble only if he’s lying about mundane stuff; like what happened to Nixon or Clinton. But make al lie to enter a war – no problem.
Anyways, it’s well beside the point.
I’ll go you one further and assert that there was no need to refute a conspiracy theory about Flight 93 being mysteriously shot down until such a conspiracy theory became popular enough to warrant refutation.
So the timeline would be something like this:
Late 2001: Flight 93 goes down.
2002-2003: Internet conspiracy theorists gossip
Mid 2004: 9/11 Commission Report published
2004-2005: Popular Mechanics develops an interest in the (recently popular) conspiracy story, assigns editor(s) and writer(s), story gets written, vetted
2005: Story appears
Seems timely to me.
People like conspiracy stories because they’re interesting. That alone accounts for the motivation to spread them; we don’t need to speculate about motives.
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There is a difference between establishing in March of 2003 that Bush W. was lying.
[/QUOTE]
The trouble is defining what ‘lying’ really means in this context, and determining what is a lie and what is simply someone being wrong or clueless (or in GW’s case both).
And whether GW lied, was wrong and/or clueless really has little to do with some vast CT, unless you are trying to incorporate it into a CT.
Which is pretty good evidence that there aren’t any vast conspiracies that last for decades. LBJ was incredibly powerful politically, and had a lock on the government that few presidents have enjoyed…yet we know most if not all of the dirt on him in pretty vivid detail at this point. Like Nixon. That’s the thing…the dirt comes out because people talk. The more people involved the harder it is to keep a secret, especially one where there is some moral or ethical ambiguity involved. Hell, we know about the ‘secret’ burning of toxic waste and other nasty stuff on the sooper sekrit military base at Grooms Lake (Area 51)…and that security is about as good as it gets in the US. I remember seeing proposed pictures of the secret stealth fighter a year or so before they went public with it (IIRC, Tom Clancy actually put some of the speculative details in one of his early books, again, before the thing was made public).
Yet it breaks down pretty frequently. How do you account for that? Things that the government desperately WANTS to keep secret come out in the public all the time…much to the deep embarrassment of pretty much all branches of the government. If they could keep those things secret they would…but, they just can’t. Which is the basic reason most of the CTs out there are so ridiculous.
Think about this…even in a totalitarian system such as North Korea or Iran, the dirt eventually comes out, and even their own people (who are generally treated like mushrooms) find out.
The trouble there is defining what a ‘lie’ actually is, and then proving that he was in fact lying. You THINK he was lying, obviously, but if so either he was a lot smarter than he appeared to be (or had a lot sharper folks working for him than he generally gets credit for) or the current government is willing to just go along with the ‘lie’ because they are nice guys…or something. My own stance is if he were in fact lying that there would be some evidence somewhere that he was, and that the Obama administration (and certainly the Democratically controlled Congress) would be making a lot of hay about it, instead of focusing on GW simply fucking up a lot and being a buffoon. YMMV of course…if he was deliberately and knowingly lying it would be a CT that he did so with the intent of taking us to war…which, to me, is implausible since I suspect someone would have dished the dirt.
Well…if you really believe that GW deliberately and knowingly lied to take us to war, then it’s not really beside the point, since that would certainly be a CT.
-XT
I think the propblem is that there are 3 types of CT.
The first type is like the 9/11 CT. All the facts the CT side presents are just plain wrong and evidence to the contary is ignored. These sort of CTs shouldn’t even be discussed because you can’t convince the theorists of logic. We reject these out-of-hand because the CTs need to STFU.
The second types is like the moon landings. These are more like faith arguments in that both side hold possible (but not equally likely) scenerios. My son was watching some fact or faked show and they showed how to simulate some of the effects of being on the Moon (like a weighted feather and hollow hammer falling at the same rate). But of course, they didn’t show EVERYTHING and that’s where these CTs fail. For example, why was the dust throuwn up im perfect parabolas? How could you simulate that on Earth. How was it that Jordell Bank and the Sovoets tracked the transmission coming from the Moon? Was the whole thing tape recorded and sent in a probe? If so, how were the laser reflectors set up? Ultimately these CTs fail because they claim to disprove a fact but never end up disproving it - either because an alternative scenerio is not disproof or because their data is flawed (like my favorite, the guy that couldn’t bend his rubber glove in a vaccuum neglecting to use a fixed-volume glove. We reject these out-of-hand because of Occam’s Razor. Does it make since that NASA seamlessly pulled of all of the fakery and anticipated every possible outcome or that we actually went to the Moon.
The last is a CT based on unknown variables. What was the relationship between Banco Ambrosiano and John Paul I’s death? Did Vince Foster commit suicide to protect the Clintons? Was Marinus van der Lubbe a Nazi agent or fervent Communist? These we reject because there is no falsifiabilty with the information at hand so ANY comment is idle specualtion.
Ok, I’m back. The past 7 days has been a slight nightmare with the events in my life, and were topped off with a death of a close family friend that wasn’t exactly expected. (perhaps THIS should be investigated as a CT to keep me from participating in this thread?)
I’ve finally caught up with my reading of the thread. Not only have a learned a few things I didn’t know before, I’ve learned a few more things about some of the people on this board. Wow. Where one person can read a post, and answer it with a posting, link or whatever in a civil manner, there are others that are incapable of doing anything other than leveling snark, attempting to make themselves feel superior. I guess this board serves many different purposes for many different people.
As to where I am on Flight 93, well I’m going to have to admit that the official story is what actually happened. The tipping point for me was the Popular Mechanics article and the identification of the other plane in the area. See how easy that was? 
Here’s the thing… I wasn’t exactly tearing up the web with CT postings on flight 93, nor was I doing a lot of research on it one way or the other. My opinion was formed when I stumbled onto that website after 9/11, read some of the local news articles and interviews, and left it at that. I certainly wasn’t looking at a Popular Mechanics magazine article in 2005, that’s for sure. In fact, I hadn’t thought of it much at all until I started this thread and threw it up as one I considered plausible.
Sure, not very diligent research on my part, but also this wasn’t something I had a lot of passion about one way or the other. The downing of any of those planes, and the loss of the innocent lives on those planes would have been tragic whether they crashed as a result of terrorists or being shot down out of the sky by a govt. plane. From my POV, the downing of the last plane over PA farmland certainly could have been brought down by our govt. And as cold as this may sound, I would have supported that decision. So, when I read about the other plane from that website from local witnesses in local news outlets, it didn’t stretch my imagination much to get to the theory that the govt, and not the passengers, downed the plane.
I used this CT for this thread as an example. A few folks gave me good links and/or reasoning to reconsider this POV. The mission has been accomplished. The FAA asking the corporate jet to see if it could get a look at the area certainly makes sense and doing so would have probably looked like the the maneuvers witnesses saw that day.
For me at least, this particular CT (such as it is) is answered. It no longer needs to be discussed. But if others want to continue the discussion, feel free. From my POV, however, I’m out of this particular discussion.
Now, for the thread itself… I’ve picked some postings which as I was reading the thread that I thought I’d address. Please keep in mind that I longer consider this an issue, and the answers below are not meant to stir the pot. If someone asked me to give an explanation for something, I will try to explain if I can. That’s it.
One final note: I asked in my OP about the psychology of the CT, why some cling to one or more, while others seem to take pleasure in being beyond insulting in answering particular questions. This thread has enough examples of the latter to allow a theory to be formed.
Maybe others would like to weigh in on it if they have an opinion. Of course, I have my own.
I really liked this statement as a general reason why the generic CT should be embraced with caution.
I think you need a better example. As the latest Wall St/Investment Banking/Insurance scandal shows, greed can be intoxicating. There never seems to be an upper limit to how much wealth and comfort people want. Clearly it’s more than they need, but need is not part of the equation.
An excellent point by Robert Anton Wilson.
I cut the link out of this post that Marley put in pointing to the Popular Mechanics piece. I’ve already discussed this above.
I think this explains a lot. In large part, it’s a terminology issue. If a CT happens to be true or have merit, it no longer falls into the CT category. CT’s by definition don’t have the proof required to make it the prevailing explanation of events.
Yes. it has nothing to do with what we were discussing.
What? where in the world do you get the jew persecution on this one? I can see why you might loathe them if you are jewish and you think that any CT is pointing to jews. But I’ve never connected the jews with the Kennedy assassination, the faked moon landings, or anything else I can think of. I DO remember the “9/11- jewish connection” (Jews got a “stay home” email or sometihing), but that comment sounds like it has a lot of paranoia in it than anything else.
Wait! Jack Ruby was Jewish (Rubenstein). It now makes sense! The Jews killed Kennedy!
I have to admit, I’ve never heard what you are talking about… People who believe in multiple shooters in Dealey Plaza are bigots?
A few people have asked me to go through a bullet list of actions or scenarios to answer. I chose one. This one.
ok. I’ll do this as an exercise. As I’ve stated, I don’t believe in the CT theory any longer, mainly because of Marley’s post (I think) which discussed the other plane, which I never had an explanation for.
by timing, I assume you are referring to the phone calls to loved ones and the arrival of the mysterious plane. This may not be that complicated. The mystery plane would have been tracking 93 when the calls took place. The callls could certainly be intercepted as they were sent out through the air. So, if the plane was prepared to intercept 93, the order to take it down could have been given the order as the passengers moved into the cockpit. If you DON’T believe the NSA doesn’t have this messa
This is also easy. I believe I read that the DEA has planes that are armed to take down potential smuggling planes. The plane could have been easily dispatched when 93 was identified as a hijacked plane.
Planes taking off from airports are one thing. Planes taking off from AFB’s are something else entirely (see A Few Good Men on how Colonel Jessup got rid of an entire flight)
Also not too hard, assuming that 93 was the only one in the air at the time. It was being monitored by every ATC in the North East.
residue was never tested for (as far as I know. anyway.) So if it was there, it would have escaped notice.
I believe that parts of the plane were found away from the crash site (I’m not going back to the website to prove it, but I think that’s where I read it.)
All of a sudden, the questions are answered. Perhaps the answers have quite a bit of reach to them (:rolleyes: to put it mildly), but i don’t believe there are any barriers to keep the CT from occurring.
That’s it. I don’t wish to debate these because I’m not supporting the mysterious plane any longer
You did NOT properly credit the quote. Quoting something I actually wrote is one thing. Quoting something I copied from a source and attributing it to me without any indication that it came from the source gives a different impression to the reader. I don’t know how you cant see this, but I believe most others can. And this JAQing_off nonsense says more about you than anyone or anything else. I think it is a strange way to try to make a point in debate. In fact, I believe you are making direct accusations about my motives, which I thought was a no-no in GD. I never said I agreed with that quote. I said I found it interesting. Big difference.
I answered most of this in another post, but I wanted to address the flight 1771 crash site. I looked around, but did not see a picture. Therefore, I can’t compare it. I didn’t read the flight 800 info because I personally don’t see any conspiracy theory here; I simply threw that out as another example of a crash of an airliner where many believed it was shot down. Sorry for any confusion.
And your post is mine.
I’ve summed up my thoughts at the beginning of this post. So if you skipped to the end to cheat, go back and read it all.
I think I’ve answered a fair sample of questions posed by other posters. I’ve also tried to give credit where I thought excellent points were made.
I’m tired. Please forgive any typos. I’ve done my best to manage the different quote tags, but if I’ve screwed the pooch here or there, my apologies.
Nobody that I know of proposes it as a conspiracy. Wealthy people don’t get together secretly to make such plans as you describe. They don’t even have the aims you describe. They DO seek, with almost mindless rapacity, to increase their wealth and power, and they do NOT give a shit about average folks. The net result tends to be that middle class and lower class people are losing it economically, big time. But it’s not a conspiracy. Just a side effect of irresponsible, uncontrolled greed.
RationalWiki is a great source here.
RationalWiki is right with the classification of conspiracy theories; however, I think it would more clarifying to look at conspiracy theories chronologically.
Before 9/11, there was Watergate. And before Watergate? New World Order.
9/11 involved planes and hijackers. Who were they? Al-Qaeda? Osama bin Laden? Osama bin Laden is dead. And Al-Qaeda? We’ll see. The question is not whether or not there is, in fact, Al-Qaeda, the question is how could Al-Qaeda, or any group of people for that matter, do what happened on September 11, 2001.
Watergate, of course, “went all the way up to the President”, and resulted in the resignation of the President.
This much is known about the New World Order. According to Wikipedia, the Order of the Illuminati was founded on May 1, 1776 by Adam Weishaupt. Thus, there is a conspiracy that is technically older than the United States. The question is not whether there could be Illuminati, the question is whether there still is Illuminati.
Of course, many conspiracy theorists (most?) say September 11th did not involve hijacked planes.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen CTers deny the existence of Al Qaeda, at least as a group acting on its own and independent of, say, the U.S. government. And I’ve definitely seen people deny that Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks.
Yes, that’s the general question.
That it doesn’t exist outside of professional wrestling?
I don’t think the 18th century Illuminati are even properly termed a conspiracy. That’s separate from the fact that there’s no evidence saying they lasted more than a decade and nothing linking them to the 1990s-ish definition of New World Order. So no, “are there still Illuminati?” is not the only question.
I’ve also seen people deny that Bin Laden was killed or that he even exists or existed.
The specific question is: How many people had to know about the plot? 19? 20? 200? 5000? As Mr. X said in JFK, “No one’s guilty, because anyone in the power structure who knows anything has a plausible deniability. There are no compromising connections except at the most secret point. But what’s paramount, is that it must succeed. No matter how many die or how much it costs, the perpetrators must be on the winning side and never subject to prosecution for anything by anyone.”
The ultimate question is: Who is at the most secret point?
What other questions are there?
Yup.
The question is whether or not the conspiracies exist. The evidence says no; people’s ignorance, gullibility, and susceptibility sometimes say ‘yes.’ There’s no secret point if there’s no conspiracy. The question you’re asking is how the conspiracy works if it exists. That can have some bearing on the plausibility of the CT, but doesn’t address whether or not it’s real.
Does “Is the Illuminati” a conspiracy count? That’d be an important one, and I think the answer is no. From what I’ve seen it was a secret society that was mainly created to discuss ideas that were not popular or not legal to discuss in public. Whether it existed in secret after 1785 is another one and I think the answer to that is also no, although I think it was revived briefly a few decades later. Of more consequence, given that the New World Order is maybe the most nebulously defined conspiracy I’ve ever heard of, is what the NWO is supposed to have done and how. The basic questions of what the hell it is in the first place and what it is, what it wants, and how it’s supposed to achieve it are only vaguely answered as far as I can see.
Well, we could start with why anyone (beyond students of European history) should care what happened to a group that only survived nine years and never accomplished anything in the few years they were actually around.
I treat CTs the same way I treat random strangers who tell me they once hooked up with Jessica Alba and Natalie Portman at the same time.
Pics or it didn’t happen.
Actually, Watergate was an actual conspiracy, not the sort of Conspiracy Theory being discussed in this thread.
Before 9/11, there were any number of CTs, not limited to, (in reverse order), The Moon Landing Hoax, Aliens at Area 51, the JFK Assassination, FDR promoting and having full knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack, The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, and any number of other bits of nonsense.
Yes, Watergate was an actual conspiracy. 9/11 was an actual event (or events) that happened on September 11, 2001. The New World Order is based on the Illuminati, an historical secret society.
Watergate is a good starting point because it was an actual conspiracy.
9/11 is where it diverges. Because, for (most) conspiracy theorists the question is: How did the events of September 11, 2001 happen?
The New World Order would be nonsense but for the fact that it is based on the Illuminati, an actual historical society that was founded on May 1, 1776 by Adam Weishaupt .
You can make up nonsense based on history. People do it all the time. A conspiracy theory that posits FDR allowed the Pearl Harbor attacks is exactly the same type of “how did it happen?” conspiracy question that a lot of people ask about Bush and September 11th. There was no divergence in the '90s.
But then you have (some) people who reject CTs like the NWO because they claim (incorrectly) that the Illuminati is fictional.
Well, it’s not an either/or question, is it? There is a middle ground between “completely made up” and “in charge of everything”.
Nope, it’s still nonsense. It’s like saying the movie “National Treasure” would be nonsense but for the fact that it is based on the Knights Templar, an actual historical society endorsed in 1129 by the Catholic Church.