What? How does me including “worth” in my definition exclude the woman in the OP from being called a racist? If Obama being in power is enough to make black people turn into crazy anarchists, doesn’t that mean they aren’t very worthwhile individuals?
Semantic quibbling in race discussions is tiresome and unproductive. People who steer the discussion into definitions, from my experience, don’t usually have a whole lot to say.
I’m curious why you think “conduct or behavior” is important. We all familiar with the “good nigger” racist. The guy who thinks his black mechanic is a good guy, but wouldn’t dare let his daughter marry him. Or the woman who loves the “girl” who cleans her house, but would be upset if she moved into the house next door. Maybe these people think their particular “good nigger” is morally upstanding and well-behaved, just not as smart or worthy as a white person.
Are you saying these people aren’t racist?
See how fun it is when we pick over each other’s definitions?
Well they have voted for white candidates largely due to the dirth of options. Al Sharpton and Jess Jackson aren’t exactly the most mainstream of candidates. And for the life of me I cannot remember the name of the black lady who ran for President in the 70s.
I’d agree. I also think there is some merit to knorf’s argument that it’s ok to vote for him because he’s black. I’ll admit that Obama’s blackness is a plus in his favor for me, and I am a white guy. I want to see the cherry popped on that one. I am tired of it being ridiculous for black children to aspire to the Presidency. That alone is a huge reason to vote for him. That being said, his blackness is way down the list in the qualities that inspire me to vote for Barack Obama.
I was also wondering about the issue that NinetyWt brought up about people who would vote for him because of race cancelling out those who would vote against him because of race.
You’re right racism is not gone in this nation, and to be honest i doubt it will ever be, but the playing field is far more level for Barack Obama to even be a credible option, let alone the likely winner of the contest.
Logically, you can break white people into four groups when it comes to racism:
White people who have not had an unusually large number of negative experiences with black people and who harbor no racist beliefs.
White people who have had an unusually large number of negative experiences with black people, yet harbor no racist beliefs.
White people who have not had an unusually large number of negative experiences with black people, yet harbor racist beliefs.
White people who have had an unusually large number of negative experiences with black people and harbor racist beliefs
If you’re concerned about racism, you are happy with groups 1 and 2. Group 3 you might be able to work with, because they are motivated by prejudice, and prejudices can be attacked with persuasion and evidence. But the real problem is group 4 - people who are racist, but whose racism stems from a number of actual negative personal experiences with black people. Let’s assume the black and white populations have exactly the same distribution of good and bad people. It is nevertheless a statistical certainty that some small percentage of white people will have had a number of negative experiences with black people (and vice versa). I believe that today, group 4 is much larger than group 3. I also believe that there is not a whole lot you can do about group 4 except put up with them and try to understand that they’re not all about hatred.
Suppose you knew a white person who had been mugged a few times in a black neighborhood, passed over for a promotion that was rightfully his, in favor of a black guy, and lived in a city that had a particularly bad black mayor. Just by random chance, there are people out there who have had this particular set of three experiences. If you knew a guy like that, and he said, “Sorry, there’s no way I’m voting for a black president”, you might not like it, but would you really get in the guy’s face about it? Likewise, there are black guys somewhere out there who were racially harassed in high school, falsely accused of shoplifting by a white guy, and pulled over for “driving while black” by a white cop. No surprise when a guy like that says he thinks O.J. was framed. Better to just leave people like that alone.
The race you belong to tells me nothing about you as an individual. You as an individual are not necessarily representative of a group average.
As a group, (self-described) blacks in the United States score an average of 129 points lower than poverty-stricken (income under $10,000/yr) whites. Middle-class blacks (income 80-100k/yr) are still outscored by 61 points by the same poor whites. The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test
So is a person who simply accepts those data points about group averages a racist because he accepts that those two cohorts perform disparately?
If he weighs the scientific evidence and concludes there is a genetic basis for the difference, is he ignorant, or does that make him a racist? If so, then does the term “racist” carry a morally negative connotation, or is it simply a descriptor?
If thinks there is a difference at a group level but treats individuals as individuals without respect to color or background, is he a racist for thinking that human cohorts can differ , or is he not a racist because he judges every individual as an individual?
I have a related question: How many White Nationalists are there in America? By which I mean not only members of WN organizations but people sympathetic to the views you’ll find on Stormfront. It’s one thing to mutter “Goddamn X” when you see people of a particular ethnicity you dislike; it’s quite another to form your entire social, political, and perhaps even moral and spiritual world-view around concepts of racial identity.
Race relations have been getting better and better as time goes on. First we had a long period of slavery. Then, that was gone, but we had a long period of segregation and Jim Crow laws, and the like.
Now that racism is no longer institutionalized, it’s somewhat underground, so to speak, and it’s hard to know how prevalent it is. I used to think racists were a tiny minority, and while things that are coming out, such as police car dash cams catching officers making racist statements, made me realize that there are more racists than I thought, I still think they are the minority. Maybe not a tiny minority, but a minority none the less.
So, as had been said by lots of people, even though we’ve come a long way, I agree we have a long way to go. But I’ve been wondering lately, will it be harder to overcome the racism our time, than in times past? Slavery was an institution that was simply abolished. Segregation and Jim Crow were laws that could be legislated away. But racism that’s passed on from generation to generation, that’s a lot harder to fight because now we’re talking about personal beliefs that the government can’t abolish or legislate away.
Can we define the racism most people know we are talking about here, as a prejudice against another person or group, based on nothing more than a characteristic of birth? Or is that too simplified?
You are a scientist. Before drawing any conclusions about racists in general, you would need to recognize that information limited to just your own family or to a few limited situations is anecdotal information.
Anecdata for you. York has only recently resolved through the courts a death or deaths from racial rioting in the late 60s. The resolution seems to have promoted tensions, based on comments in the print media.
During a conversation earlier this year with a retired PSU prof he mentioned that York has the largest Klan enrollment of any area north of the Mason-Dixon, a real eyebrow raiser. I have no need to verify this, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
Having lived through the U.S. civil rights era and apartheid in the RSA, have to say we should be optimistic about this as it really is getting better.
Maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t. But anyway, you are the master of your own definition. As long as you apply it consistently, I don’t really care.
In my opinion, ambiguity in charged terms like “racism” can really confuse a lot of issues. So I don’t think it’s a waste of time.
No I am not. Both of your examples involve treating people differently based on their perceived race. If you like, you can expand “treating people differently” to include thoughts or beliefs.
We all know a lot more racists than we think we do.
Anecdote: my parents made a point of bringing us up not to be racist. Apparently their parents, especially my dad’s father, had been racist and they didn’t want us growing up with the same ideas.
It wasn’t until I was well into my twenties that I started to realize that my parents were a little big racist themselves. Not a lot, and in most cases they fight against it, but it’s still there.
Some of my mom’s siblings, though, are dismayingly racist. And they’re college educated. They don’t drive around with “death to minorities” bumper stickers or anything, but if the conversation should turn a certain way, look out.
One of my uncles-in-law has two or three mixed race grandkids, at least one of which lived with him for several years. And yet he’ll spout off all kinds of horrifying nonsense if he thinks he’s in a situation where he can get away with it.
Saying you don’t know any racists is like saying you don’t know anyone who’s had an abortion. Yes you do. Yes you do.
I agree 100%. Racism has become such a touchy subject in America today that most people are pretty guarded with their words. Asking how pervasive racism is is a bit like asking how pervasive anti-Communist sentiment was in the former Soviet Union.
Of course. But if someone’s telling me that racists are a tiny, insignificant portion of the population, they have to do more than tell me, “Well, things are so much better than they were in the 1960s” for me to believe them.
Racism has been the default mentality of this country since the beginning of its inception. I’m willing to bet the majority of Americans living today were born in the time when black people lived in codified second-class citizenship. So it’s much more of a stretch for me to believe that racists are a tiny, insignificant portion of the population than it is to believe that they aren’t. When no one has any hard, peer-reviewed data to support either assumption (which isn’t true, but let’s say it is), then relying on anecdotes ain’t unjustified.
I’ve been surprised to hear a few white people (here in the Baltimore/Washington area) express fears of black rioting as a result of the election. It seems about evenly divided between “they’ll riot if he loses” and “they’ll riot if one of their own gets in”.
There’s racism here, but it’s more covert, than in, say, the deep south. I was down in Mississippi recently, and bought some clothing at a store owned by an elderly white man. He was very polite, but he casually used the n-word in conversation while there were black customers within earshot. The amazing thing was, he didn’t seem to bear any ill will towards black people. Around here, using the n-word is pretty much an intentional signal of racial hatred. The deep south is a different universe.
I also got into a conversation with a woman in a bar who insisted that Obama was an Arab, and a Muslim, and she was really scared of what would happen if he is elected.
I liken it to the seat-belt campaign (crude analogy I admit). That was met with a lot of howling and gnashing of teeth, yet today I’d say it was a sucess. I don’t know many folks these days who won’t wear their seat belts, yet back in the day they vowed they’d never put one on.
The way to eradicate racism (as much as we can) is for normal people ( ) to keep on insisting that everyone be treated with respect and dignity, and to encourage positive thinking across ethnic groups, and preach it to our kids even if we’re still harboring some racist ways ourselves. This last one is kind of like ‘learning to love’ a step-child or step-parent; with enough time and positive thinking, you can really grow to love that person.
) to keep on insisting that everyone be treated with respect and dignity, and to encourage positive thinking across ethnic groups, and preach it to our kids even if we’re still harboring some racist ways ourselves. This last one is kind of like ‘learning to love’ a step-child or step-parent; with enough time and positive thinking, you can really grow to love that person.