Why do we want healthcare INSURANCE?

I’ve been doing a lot of driving lately, from DC to Pittsburgh and back again every weekend. That leaves a lot of time for listening to NPR and musing to oneself. I realized I couldn’t come up with a good reason for a universal health care insurance plan.

If I may, I’d like to stipulate a few facts. First, anyone in the US can get healthcare that they need. It’s how to pay for it that’s the problem. Second, most people get HC through their job. Third, there aren’t that many that actually want HC and can’t get it- something like 4%? Lastly, and UHC plan doesn’t have the goal of making a profit.

So why are we all fixated on offering *insurance *to those without it? Why try to offer protection against something that may or may not happen? Why not just make federal grants that pick up the tab when expenses are incurred? The way I see it, private companies change a monthly fee in a gamble that they’ll collect more premiums than they pay out- sorta like a casino full of slots. But the gov’t isn’t interested in profit. They just want to help people. So why not have a system where the gov’t doesn’t step in until a person runs up, say, 100% of annual their income in unpaid bills. If the debt pushes higher, the gov’t will pay it off, free (or almost free) of charge.

One beneft of this is that by putting the patient on the hook for the first $X, they’re more likely to make fiscally responsible decisions, thus dodging the moral hazard/principle-agent problem. They won’t run to the ER for a hangnail, f’rinstance. Second, it directly targets aid to those that need it. Through tax filings, we know how much a person/family makes. Under this system, the government pays out if and only if the citizen actually incurs expenses and those expenses are demonstrably burdensome.

So what’s wrong with my system?

My primary problem: How is my uninsured because she lost her job and can’t get another full-time-with-benefits replacement job acquaintance, who happens to work 2 part-time jobs making 35,000 a year total (above the poverty line), supposed to pay for the $10,000 broken bone her son just had? She takes him to the ER, and they have to treat him. They xray him, cast him, examine him, and tell him the cast rules. The ER has the most expensive stuff, and the most expensive staff. She can’t pay, so the insured individuals end up paying through the nose because she literally doesn’t have the money after daycare, food, rent, and bills. The hospital lawyers take her to court, they get a filing against her, and she bankrupts. Again. Leaving no one to pay for her bills. This causes hospital costs to go up, making insurers pay more, making insurees pay more… Vicious cycle.

I don’t know what to do to fix it. Your idea, in my opinion, is sound, but maybe reduce the maximum? Say, 20% of income? 30%? Up to that point, financing options and monthly payments usually allow someone to get disaster care. It still lets her kids go to school with strep throat, infecting everyone around them WITH insurance, costing the insurers more, etc. It’s a problem, and like I said, I don’t know what to do to fix it. If I may point out, however, your solution is merely a high-deductible insurance plan tax payers pay for. If you go over x dollars, you’ll be covered.

Friedman had the same idea, and also doesn’t like the fact that “insurance” in healthcare is very different from “insurance” in other contexts.

How would this scheme replicate the efficiencies of UHC countries who have half the costs, and on average, better health?

Well, it’s starts by being idiotic and goes downhill from there. F’rinstance, I’m one of the 9.7% of Americans, er, between gigs, and my (4-5 week temporary job) wife (diabetic) and I (depressive and ashmatic) have to live on the $4 prescriptions at Target and hoping that we don’t get worse. My dependant, epileptic daughter is relying on charity to get her meds since I cannot afford the $1300 (or $450Ca)/month to keep her from having several seizures per month.

You may seek the nether regions if you believe we would not JUMP at the possibility of real health insurance if we could, in our straits, afford it as well as our other expenses. I might call people like you clueless, heartless assholes, were this in another forum. I’ve spent decades paying taxes to support others in need, and though it hurts to ask for it, I have an instant dislike for those that begrudge me it now.

Most insurance already has co-pays which discourage people from going to the doctor for every scrape. In reality, however, people do not like going to the doctor and I’d like to see any cite that frivolous visits are a serious problem

Poor people do go the Emergency room for routine care because they can not turn them away. Having some sort of Universal health care would allow these people to go to a regular doctor’s office during the day when it is cheaper.

It would be nice to reduce health costs such that a visit to the doctor costs no more than getting your oil changed. We do not have that case now. My girlfriend had a cat scratch get infected and has so far paid about $1,100 for two office calls and prescriptions. Right now she is unemployed and does not have health insurance, so she waited as long as she could before going. The doctor said if she had not come in she may have lost her hand.

I’ve seen two people who were unsure if they had heart attacks. They knew that going to see the doctor would result in 100s of dollars in bills if they were healthy and 1,000s of dollars if they were really sick.

Do you know anyone who does this?

The market doesn’t have to protect against moral hazard as much in this sector as in some, if physicians are ethical. Now, judging from my personal experience in torts, they’re not always.

But generally, few patients are running to ER for a hangnail. It’s the major fraudulent operations you have to watch out for, & that’s what hospital oversight boards are for; they’re more expert in determining what’s real than the blind hands of the market.

One problem I see is that the “cost” of healthcare, the numbers attached to given services at a doctor’s office or hospital, are basically made-up, arbitrary numbers: insurance companies all pay out on their own, negotiated schedule, and people without insurance don’t pay at all, in many cases. Those that do manage to pay for services out of pocket are a small group, and not a group most doctor’s offices are real interested in attracting. The numbers don’t mean anything, and they certainly don’t reflect any sort of supply and demand/free market pressure.

Since those numbers are arbitrary, doctors and patients will collaborate to move them up–after all, over a certain point, everything is free. So then people start talking about how doctors have to charge a “fair price” (which we have no way to determine, since we have no free market for medical services) and then you’ve got government set price ceilings and that means shortages as people leave the professions, and the next thing you know the whole thing falls apart.

No, but I know of a few anecdotal cases where superfluous tests were done, such as my MRI on my wrist.

dropzone, did you even read the OP? Did you miss the part where you get help?

We already have that system, it’s called an HSA Plan.

In theory it works well if you’re healthy and or have a good income coming in. It doesn’t work so well if you’re poorer and/or have an health issue, because you have to come up with the money upfront or take a payment plan. So that leads people who don’t have the money either not going in for treatment or getting deeper into debt.

For me, I have to spend $4,500, for a family it’s $6,500 before the insurance will cover me and even then, i still have to deal with the insurance company deciding whether or not I need x or y. I get a reduced rate on treatment, an example would be if a med costs $35, I would be charged $25. At our first meeting when the plan was annouced, we were encouraged not offer payment immediately and instead try to see if we can get the service provider to reduce their prices.

Empowerment and all that.

No, they can’t. Saying “you can go to the ER” is not a valid cite for this. The ER only has to treat you for life threatening conditions. While some will take care of your for less serious stuff, it’s a loss to them and they don’t have to to that. If you have a chronic condition that requires daily maintenance no, there is no guarantee you can get any healthcare you need. Where did you get that ridiculous notion?

Cite, please.

Because if you have a condition that isn’t curable or fixable it’s not a matter of “might”, it’s a matter of “it exists”. My husband, for example, was born with a birth defect and now has diabetes due to an injury to his pancreas. Health problems are not a hypothetical for him, they exist and will continue to exist for the rest of his life.

Because it will be annoying as crap to for my family to fill one of those out every month? (Or whatever interval is required) Your idea does nothing for people with chronic problems. If anything, it just makes it worse.

My husband’s current on-going medical costs will have us running up 100% of our income every 6-9 months. So, basically, such a system would put us permanently into a debt 100% of our current income. Forever. Because his problems are not curable. This is a good thing…why?

:rolleyes: Ah, yes, my husband chose to have a birth defect… :rolleyes:

Medical problems frequently have no relationship to individual choice. Even a person with the healthiest of habits may develop cancer or heart disease or get into a car accident because some other driver was irresponsible.

My husband’s medical expenses were so burdensome as to nearly bankrupt us and render us homeless the 8 months we were without insurance. Why do we need to be a hair’s breadth from living on the sidewalk before we get help? What purposes does that serve?

That’s not a fact. You are simply wrong. Whoever told you that is a liar or himself was lied to.

You can walk into an ER for a knife in your back or a heart attack. You cannot walk into an ER for high blood pressure meds or a bone marrow transplant.

Would you like to reassess your strategy considering your first premise is utterly incorrect?

How does this make the patient irresponsible?

They only did an MRI on my sprained ankle/torn tendon because I’m a runner and my doctor wanted to make sure I was okay to go back to marathon training. Wasn’t expecting to see anything else.

Hey, look! A stress fracture! Good thing I had that useless MRI…

which my insurance screwed up and sent me a $1,600 bill for that I’ll probably be fighting for months. That’s the self-pay cost. You know the insurance company doesn’t pay that, which is one of the big huge problems.

The problem is that in America we have the worst of both worlds. It is pretty much impossible to pay for medical care out of pocket because prices are set at random. If you wanted to pay out of pocket you’d pay much much MUCH higher prices than the insurance companies do, because you can’t negotiate payment schedules in advance.

For many years I had no health insurance. I was young and healthy, and during my twenties I had about $200 in health expenses, including aspirin and bandaids.

But if I had been in a bike accident I would have been screwed, because a couple broken bones would have cost me thousands and thousands of dollars. Money that I didn’t have, because I was underemployed. So the hospital would have treated me, and I probably would have stiffed them for the bill, because I had no money to pay even if I wanted to.

But now I’m in my 40s. And suppose I’m uninsured. If I get a really expensive medical condition, I could lose my house and my retirement savings in no time. In my 20s it didn’t matter because I was judgment proof. I had nothing to lose because I had no house, I had no savings, I had no investments, I had nothing. But now I’ve got a lot to lose, and so I HAVE to have insurance. Not because I want to run to the doctor all the time–I’ve been to the doctor every other year for a checkup in the last 10 years–but because if something major happens to me I don’t want to be bankrupted.

And I can’t pay out of pocket for routine stuff either, because the prices are insane and make no sense because we don’t have a free market in health care in this country. I can’t get a catastrophe-only insurance policy, and individual health insurance prices are astronomical, because insurance companies figure that only sick people want them, healthy people will just risk going uninsured.

And so I’m obligated to get health insurance through my employer to get decent health insurance that doesn’t cost way way too much. Except I work in the lower tier of the technology sector, and so I have to change insurance plans all the time as I change jobs. And so I never know what coverage I actually have, I never know what doctors I can see, I never know what the limits are. It would be one thing if I got a job and stayed in that job for 40 years. But that isn’t the case anymore.

And so our current system doesn’t work very well, now does it? Even people who have insurance through their jobs worry about having to change jobs, or go through a stretch of unemployment, because then they risk losing everything if they happen to have some medical emergency when their in insurance limbo.

And so here we are, where people are thinking that maybe just having the government run everything would be simpler, cheaper and easier. Sure, you’d have to deal with faceless government bureaucrats for your health care, but how would that be different than what we have now? Sure, your health care would be rationed, but how would that be different than what we have now? Sure the price would be high, but how would that be different than what we have now?

I think it is time for anti-UHC people to produce a cite that there actually is a moral hazard operating. It should be easy to do, since the move from totally paid visits to co-pays should have reduced the amount of healthcare needed, right? Ditto for new systems where the patient pays 10% or 20% instead of nothing. There is one study showing that visits do go up some, but that was on a base of the underserved. We’re not talking about people being able to make needed visits, we’re talking frivolous ones. I’d guess that clinics in Europe are just overflowing with those who get treatment for amusement. In August the French don’t go to the beach, they must go to the doctor.

My impression is the the underlying attitude here is that the great unwashed are so bored that they’d be happy to take off work and sit for hours in an ER or tiny waiting room watching Andy Griffith reruns just for the fun of it. I don’t see it.

It also amuses me that people who don’t know one end of a syringe from the other are second guessing tests ordered by their doctors. A negative result does not mean that the test was wasteful.

My insurance company clearly states the list price for treatment and the price they pay. Further, when my wife got smashed in an accident, we wound up suing the insurance company of the other driver to get her medical bills. Our lawyer quickly and easily negotiated a payment to the doctors of about half the list price, and it seemed like this was standard procedure.
Buying a used car in the US has a more rational pricing structure than going to the doctor.

Excellent post, and I agree 100%. The situation that we have now is the worst we could have, but I don’t see any way possible to return to a market based system. Too many people depend on the current system and even if there was a strong will to try it, and there certainly is not, then you would have tens of thousands of people suffering without care during the transition.

This idea of tying health care with your job has to be done away with. Could you imagine a situation where you get laid off from work, so you lose your auto insurance and can’t drive anymore?

Has anyone ever had the experience of going to a doctor and being told that the cost would be X, and then after being informed that you don’t have insurance, the cost is changed to a much smaller number?

I have. We have private dentistry in Canada, but many people have their own insurance. It was so common at one point for dentists to charge one price for insured people and another for the uninsured that laws had to be changed to prevent it. And it still happens all the time.

Making people responsible for their own routine medical care doesn’t just have the effect of making them less likely to use the system frivolously. The far more important effect is that it allows the price system to work. If people are spending their own money, they have an incentive to spend it wisely. That opens the door to doctors having to compete with each other on price, which is key to keeping costs down and creating innovation.

Third party payers, whether it’s an insurance company or the government, should be the last resort. They are by their nature inefficient and least able to control costs.

Imagine what car insurance would be like if it covered preventative maintenance for your car. Every trip to the shop would be a paperwork nightmare. Every garage would have an incentive to pad their bills as much as possible. There would be no competition between garages. In fact, demand would probably be so high that there would be waiting lists for routine auto work. The insurance would be hellishly expensive. The poor wouldn’t be able to afford it.

But the advocates would say, “But preventative maintenance makes your car run longer, and in the long run saves money! If we make people pay for their own, costs will go up.”

Eventually, the situation hits a crisis, so the government steps in and provides universal car insurance that covers all car expenses. Then to control costs, it sets up fee schedules and fixes the pay of auto service people. No one can charge more or less than what’s on the schedule. Every decision is scrutinized by an army of bureaucrats. New maintenance procedures have to be greenlighted by a score of agencies, each of which has its own agenda.

Can you guess what such a system would ultimately look like? There would be shortages in supply caused by price gaps. Long waiting lists for car maintenance. The guy with the car which a suspicious knocking sound in the engine compartment has to wait three months to get in for service. Taxes go up to pay for the hellishly large bureaucracy.

That’s government health care in the nutshell.

Here’s your simple, sane health care plan:

  1. End taxpayer subsidy of employer-provided health care.
  2. Provide universal catastrophic care, indexed to income so it’s progressive.
  3. Take the tax subsidy money and give everyone a tax credit for their own health savings accounts.
  4. Use Cass Sunstein’s ‘nudge’ idea, and have businesses by default withold some small percentage of income and put it in the health savings account. Employees can opt out, but the default is to opt in.
  5. Eliminate medicare, and put the elderly in the same system. Rich elderly people are just as capable of paying for their own health care as are rich young people. If necessary, the government can provide additional financial aid to those on low fixed incomes.

There you go. You can achieve all your social aims by changing the amount of indexing for income. Maybe people on the poverty line only pay the first $100 of their health care per year, while millionaires pay the first $50,000. Ideally, you want to index this to utility - the amount of financial pain is equal regardless of income.

There are many positive benefits for this. For one thing, you get insurance companies out of the mix for the vast majority of small medical bills, greatly easing paperwork costs. You get providers competing for customers.

One of the problems with health insurance is adverse selection - insurers would like to insure the healthiest people, but the people who need it the most are the least healthy. Also, there is an information asymmetry - the insurance companies know less about their health of their clients than their clients do. This means insurance companies have to charge a risk premium, which drives up costs and drives out the healthiest people, making the risk pool even worse.

But if private insurers changed to a ‘gap insurance’ model, where they only had to cover people up to the government’s catastrophic limit, their downside risk would be much smaller and the premiums lower. The problems of adverse selection and information asymmetry go down by an order of magnitude or two. And since poor people have smaller caps, their insurance would be much cheaper. Gap insurance could be offered by employers for low cost, or people could choose to finance their gap through health savings accounts.

Cass Sunnstein’s ‘nudge’ idea would be a great help here. Studies have shown that when employers put part of an employee’s salary in a retirement account by default, the employees tend to save far more money. If the employee is responsible for setting up his or her own retirement account, the savings rate goes down. So have employers set up HSAs by default. We’re not talking about mandatory savings - the employee can still opt out. We’re just talking about changing the default settings to ‘nudge’ people in the right direction.

Variations on these kinds of systems are working quite well in other countries, including New Zealand and Canada. Canada is moving more and more towards a system where private clinics will take up the routine health care needs of the people, and the government will pay for the expensive major surgeries. New Zealand already has a 25% co-pay with gap insurance being the common way to cover it.

Yup - in fact *everytime *I’ve had to pay out of pocket, I’ve paid less than the insurance co/Medicaid rate.